culling

[aarontheman]

it cost a fortune to call from ireland to america so i might just see were other fanciers get there stuff its really far the one that is near to me thanks anyways

 

[Pigeon Power]

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/contactus.html


You can email too~and that cost nothing!

 

[aarontheman]

i know some people who drown them or give them chemicals to cull the bird what does everyone think of that ? bad i think

 

[fowlsessed]

I don't like that.

 

[laughingdog]

A clean quick decapitation kills instantly, not raising pulse, heart rate, resperation, raises so much as a feather, and won't even cause contracting or dialating of pupals (befored death), if increadibly easily done.

i eat my culls n toss rest to dogs etc so nothing wasted, n even bones n feathers composted along with manure to greatly inrich garden soil (worms love feathers and hair same as white bread).

Don't sell/even give away anything you wouldn't show, compete, breed, keep n feed, and or fly yourself! Please.. be responsible for species n breeds keeping of, n think of after effect of that action years n generations down road.

Meds only go so far and all should consider quality over quantity of life of birds in our care/keeping. keeping an aninal alive after it would have died in minutes (days at very most) in wild from preds seeking out and ending suffering, seems as bad as torturing it purposely yourself, to me. preds n scavengers are merciful enders even of weak n suffering that humans seem to forget, with laws based on archaic mythical fairytales that punish and make helping and self ending of suffering illegal, while saying to just take pharmaceuticals that only prolong n create never endi dependencies on, bodies growing weaker being killied pieces at time with treatments. so yeah I'm not holding too highly western philosophies on how to prolong to profit from problems.

 

[Pigeon Power]

Genetically speaking "purebred" animals of any kind are not the most sound. Even if the animal seems healthy and well established, it could very well be carrying some nasty recessive genes. Some of the best show birds are genetic nightmares because of inbreeding but because it present a certain look they are not culled. Anytime you breed for a certain characteristics, may it be for sporting (flying) or for show, or for meat breed, you are weakening the genetics because you are making the genetic pool smaller. Giving away an animal for a pet or to someone who is not interested in show and just might breed them to what the heck ever because they just like birds would really be doing the birds a favor genetically speaking. It is not hurting future pigeons, especially if they are not breeding them. I have many many times found people who just want birds as pets, and who keep them for just that. That's were most of my mix breeds end up. In loving homes with people who just enjoy them. Any birds that have special needs or have health issues I don't breed. Thus it has no genetic impact on the breed but I don't kill them. Ultimately in many cases its hard telling whether its a genetic or environmental issues thus that's why medication for birds, I feel is important. I have never in 20+ years of breeding had any issues with mass die offs from illness in my flocks. I rarely have I ever had even a sick bird. The one's that were sick I medicated, with no ill effects on that bird on any other. I have had a few that have had genetic deformities due to pure breeding, or issues such as hens going lite. I do not breed those birds, but thats the cost of getting into this type of thing. My point being the simple act of breeding a certain "breed" of animal is weakening it genetically, that yes it is best not to breed animals that have issues. I guess to me sometimes culling is more for selfish human reasons rather then whats really good for the animal.

 

[paramount]

Genetically speaking "purebred" animals of any kind are not the most sound. Even if the animal seems healthy and well established, it could very well be carrying some nasty recessive genes. Some of the best show birds are genetic nightmares because of inbreeding but because it present a certain look they are not culled. Anytime you breed for a certain characteristics, may it be for sporting (flying) or for show, or for meat breed, you are weakening the genetics because you are making the genetic pool smaller. Giving away an animal for a pet or to someone who is not interested in show and just might breed them to what the heck ever because they just like birds would really be doing the birds a favor genetically speaking. It is not hurting future pigeons, especially if they are not breeding them. I have many many times found people who just want birds as pets, and who keep them for just that. That's were most of my mix breeds end up. In loving homes with people who just enjoy them. Any birds that have special needs or have health issues I don't breed. Thus it has no genetic impact on the breed but I don't kill them. Ultimately in many cases its hard telling whether its a genetic or environmental issues thus that's why medication for birds, I feel is important. I have never in 20+ years of breeding had any issues with mass die offs from illness in my flocks. I rarely have I ever had even a sick bird. The one's that were sick I medicated, with no ill effects on that bird on any other. I have had a few that have had genetic deformities due to pure breeding, or issues such as hens going lite. I do not breed those birds, but thats the cost of getting into this type of thing. My point being the simple act of breeding a certain "breed" of animal is weakening it genetically, that yes it is best not to breed animals that have issues. I guess to me sometimes culling is more for selfish human reasons rather then whats really good for the animal.

You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, Power.

For those of us who are trying to reach a manmade standard of perfection (it doesn't matter what type of animal it is), we are always walking a very narrow line.

With rollers as an example, what we are really cultivating is a bonafide genetic defect and what's more, it can be cultivated to the level of total self destruction. I have known guys who have intentionally bred them to the point of rolling down from thousands of feet, only to watch them dash themselves to pieces. Those guys ought to be forced to jump off the top of their houses without a safety net. Not from high enough to kill them, but from just high enough to give them enough of a little taste of it so that they might reconsider what they are doing.

So to some extent, there is a definitely a little bit of human selfishness involved and no matter the breed or how we do it, we're all doing it to some extent. Putting it simply, Fantails, Pouters, Parlor Rollers, Runts and hundreds of other breeds are largely incapable of surviving on their own.

Of course, the world is also our playground too and we could be doing far worse things with our time. It's still a tightrope though and at any time, a breeding program can result in a total genetic disaster.

Racing Homers might be one of the only real exceptions to this where pigeons are concerned, as birds with genetic weaknesses don't last long in the rigors of that sport.

I'll give you a prime example: A friend of mine was a top racing guy and was always "in the money". He had one cock on his racing team and this bird was always never "quite there". He'd hung on to him for a few years because it was off one of his top pairs, but it was always a lagger. Eventually he said "One more time in the bottom and I'll cull him". He sent him out on a 500 kind of hoping the bird would not return and sure enough, the bird was not back. "Good riddance" he said.

He had his loft up on a hillside overlooking about 40 acres of pasture, a prime location if there ever was one for racing. A few weeks later, he went out to feed in the morning and saw a pigeon in the middle of his long driveway. He assumed it was a feral, but as he attended to his birds, he noticed that this bird was slowly making its way up the hill. Before long it appeared on the ground next to his racing loft. It was the lag-behind and the bird was matted in dried blood and had a piece of tree branch imbedded through its breast. At some point, this bird had flown through a tree and had hit a branch so hard that it had actually impaled itself. And then it apparently struggled home from there. While he had no idea how far it had come in that condition, as my friend liked to put it: "He walked home".

Did he still cull it? No way. He pulled the twig out of its breast, stitched him up, nursed him back to health and he added him to his breeding loft. Even though this bird was never in the money, it possessed a true instinct to come home no matter what and was tough as nails. My racing friend put more value on that than he did winning. The bird produced several race winners and a half dozen other birds that were in the money and it was the grandsire and great grandsire to many more race winners. His descendants were known for still being reliable in the hardest conditions. Even in smash races and the worst weather they were still in the money.

Putting it another way, the racing guys want genetic vigor and tend to weed out the weak ones.

 

[jak2002003]

You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, Power.

For those of us who are trying to reach a manmade standard of perfection (it doesn't matter what type of animal it is), we are always walking a very narrow line.

With rollers as an example, what we are really cultivating is a bonafide genetic defect and what's more, it can be cultivated to the level of total self destruction. I have known guys who have intentionally bred them to the point of rolling down from thousands of feet, only to watch them dash themselves to pieces. Those guys ought to be forced to jump off the top of their houses without a safety net. Not from high enough to kill them, but from just high enough to give them enough of a little taste of it so that they might reconsider what they are doing.

So to some extent, there is a definitely a little bit of human selfishness involved and no matter the breed or how we do it, we're all doing it to some extent. Putting it simply, Fantails, Pouters, Parlor Rollers, Runts and hundreds of other breeds are largely incapable of surviving on their own.

Of course, the world is also our playground too and we could be doing far worse things with our time. It's still a tightrope though and at any time, a breeding program can result in a total genetic disaster.

Racing Homers might be one of the only real exceptions to this where pigeons are concerned, as birds with genetic weaknesses don't last long in the rigors of that sport.

I'll give you a prime example: A friend of mine was a top racing guy and was always "in the money". He had one cock on his racing team and this bird was always never "quite there". He'd hung on to him for a few years because it was off one of his top pairs, but it was always a lagger. Eventually he said "One more time in the bottom and I'll cull him". He sent him out on a 500 kind of hoping the bird would not return and sure enough, the bird was not back. "Good riddance" he said.

He had his loft up on a hillside overlooking about 40 acres of pasture, a prime location if there ever was one for racing. A few weeks later, he went out to feed in the morning and saw a pigeon in the middle of his long driveway. He assumed it was a feral, but as he attended to his birds, he noticed that this bird was slowly making its way up the hill. Before long it appeared on the ground next to his racing loft. It was the lag-behind and the bird was matted in dried blood and had a piece of tree branch imbedded through its breast. At some point, this bird had flown through a tree and had hit a branch so hard that it had actually impaled itself. And then it apparently struggled home from there. While he had no idea how far it had come in that condition, as my friend liked to put it: "He walked home".

Did he still cull it? No way. He pulled the twig out of its breast, stitched him up, nursed him back to health and he added him to his breeding loft. Even though this bird was never in the money, it possessed a true instinct to come home no matter what and was tough as nails. My racing friend put more value on that than he did winning. The bird produced several race winners and a half dozen other birds that were in the money and it was the grandsire and great grandsire to many more race winners. His descendants were known for still being reliable in the hardest conditions. Even in smash races and the worst weather they were still in the money.

Putting it another way, the racing guys want genetic vigor and tend to weed out the weak ones.

What a lovely story!

I think, often, people are too quick to cull. I have found, with my bantams, and pigeons, that often I can get a very cheap bird.. that the breeder does not consider genetically good quality... wrong size, shape, etc. Then when they breed and produce young at my place, I find that I get very good show quality birds... and as they breed, so too their offspring are good for many more generations.

With my pigeons, I had an Old Dutch Capuchine female that lacked the correct markings, but was the colour I wanted (and was hard to find). She also was small and a bit unsteady on her legs... this bird would have been culled by most people. ....

However, I found her size and weakness was due to care and diet and the previous owners. When I allowed her to breed she has produced excellent offspring with correct colouring and they are all very large and strong.

Sometimes a bird can be seen as being unsuitable for breeding.... from past disease, bad diet, accident, or other factors that have taken a toll on its body. However, it will still have the genetic make up to potentially produce healthy, show quality birds in the future.

I don't have any issue with culling in a responsible breeding programme. But it should be a last resort, and the numbers of birds killed should be kept to an absolute minimum.

We need to remember these are living creatures, not objects.. and its very selfish and immoral to breed and cull huge numbers of animals just for money.

 

[Pigeon Power]

Paramount: Yes it was indeed a great story! Thanks so much for sharing! I even told my husband about it! I as well agree with your last post, with breeding birds or any animal we are in fact playing mother nature or god if you will, and it is indeed for selfish human reasons. You are right most of these breeds would not be able to survive in the wild. I suppose this is why I keeping all my birds alive regardless is a few come out with some deformities or what have you (as long as they have quality of life that is). Jak I also enjoyed your input you made some good points I also know from experience to be true

 

[philipchickymad]

would shooting them with an air rifle be considered humane