Debate on food, free range and egg quality...

[Krugerrand]

My view is based more around what is likely to be good for the chicken as a species in the long term and hatchery raised birds kept in cages is most defintely not.

I can certainly find value in your approach. Also, I wouldn't say that high-production chicken farms are advancing the well-being of the chicken. But my hens locked up in their spacious coop and run seem pretty happy. I see it like dogs. working dogs, retreivers, toy, they all are looking for different things. That doesn't make one worse than the other. My chickens definitely would not be happy trying to survive on their own, much like a lap dog would not like having to pull a cart.

 

[3KillerBs]

I would myself say 2-3 good acres would be the minimum to have a self-sustaining game flock that has room to grow. Poor people fed their families that way.

I personally have 3 acres. But they aren't good acres -- that impoverished ecosystem thing. Also, they are partially-covered with houses and outbuildings. They are also laid out as a skinny rectangle which would be ridiculously expensive to fence. We're pressed to come up with the money for electric tape and a charger to keep the deer out of the orchard much less tight fencing to keep the chickens on our own land and out of our neighbors' yards, gardens, pool patios, dog pens, etc.

If there were a complete collapse of civilization you'd be better prepared than I would be -- but I'm under no illusion that I could survive that situation chickens or no chickens.

The productivity of modern chickens kept in the modern fashion makes my life better now -- especially if I can turn a profit, or at least offset the costs, in egg sales.

I also used a long pole with a T piece on the end. If you apply pressure to the back of a chickens leg between the ankle and knee it's an involuntary action to step back and grasp whatever is behind them.

I use that exact technique to take chickens off the roosts when I need to. I can get them up on my hand and carry them around like a parrot with a lot less flapping and panicking than if I tried the conventional grasp around the wings (for which my hands are too small).

 

[Shadrach]

If a diet provides everything the chicken needs, why would you ever call that diet "deficient"?

It may be providing things in a different form than some people would expect, but if the right nutrients are there in some form (either directly usable, or in a form the chicken can convert to a usable form), then the diet is NOT deficient.

I didn't. I called it amino acid deficient.

"Inadequate in amount or degree; insufficient."

 

[NatJ]

I didn't. I called it amino acid deficient.

"Inadequate in amount or degree; insufficient."

That was my point.
If the chickens are getting the amino acids they need, the diet is NOT deficient in amino acids.

It doesn't matter whether they eat the correct amino acids directly, or eat the things they need to make the correct amino acids-- the diet is not deficient in amino acids if the chickens really are getting what they need.

 

[Shadrach]

I can certainly find value in your approach. Also, I wouldn't say that high-production chicken farms are advancing the well-being of the chicken. But my hens locked up in their spacious coop and run seem pretty happy. I see it like dogs. working dogs, retreivers, toy, they all are looking for different things. That doesn't make one worse than the other. My chickens definitely would not be happy trying to survive on their own, much like a lap dog would not like having to pull a cart.

I took on the care of some Ex Battery hens last year. They'll live to three or four years old if they're lucky.
Their overall health has improved drastically with a couple of hours a day out of their run, able to forage, fly, run and do many of the things free rangers can do.
I'll try and find the author later but when she wrote the book (1960's) a free range dual purpose breed was expected to live on average 10 years old.
It isn't a popular study but I can't help wondering what the average age of some of the dual purpose heritage breeds is now. It seems from what I've read on these forums a six year old is doing well.

 

[Aunt Angus]

Imma be honest - I only got about halfway through this thread. So if what I'm about to suggest has been mentioned, I apologize.

I am in a similar situation, though I am less concerned about healthy eggs and more concerned with giving my chickens and ducks the best life I can.

I have 22 birds in about 900 sq ft between the covered run and their fenced yard. There's ZERO grass in there now that it's summer during this #@#%&! drought. I've decided to build grazing boxes to supplement their regular diet of all flock pellets & oyster shell. That way, my birds will benefit from fresh greens and predator protection, and I'll benefit by saving some money on feed and from seeing greenery in that wasteland of a run again.

I'm going to make something similar to these here:
https://www.attainable-sustainable.net/diy-grazing-boxes/#:~:text=What are grazing boxes?,peck at the fresh buffet.

 

[Shadrach]

That was my point.
If the chickens are getting the amino acids they need, the diet is NOT deficient in amino acids.

It doesn't matter whether they eat the correct amino acids directly, or eat the things they need to make the correct amino acids-- the diet is not deficient in amino acids if the chickens really are getting what they need.

The point is they may not be getting the right quantity of amino acids, hence deficient. It doesn't mean they drop dead.
If a chicken is deficient in protein for example it doesn't mean they don't get any. It can equally mean they don't get enough to achieve their full growth potential for example.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I think the discussion online, in general gets more confused when you aren't given proper context for the intent of the chicken keeper and the desired output / expectations of the birds.

SO SO much truth here.

There is no "one right way", or everyone woud be doing it (except that one guy, because there's always that one guy...) There are hundreds, thousands, of wrong ways.

I don't recommend the ways I use - they are simply inapplicable to most - but I'm happy to explain why I've chosen the ways that I have, the trade offs I understand myself to be making, and I post the results of my efforts as possibly useful anecdotes to others.

Yes, I big on *understanding* poultry nutrition. So that people can consider their needs from their chickens in their situation and make intelligent choices about how to feed, what to feed. The same with understanding our birds (in terms of reasonable expectations of needs and performance) so we have references against which to compare our own bird's condition and outputs. Again, so intelligent choices can be made - how many hens do you need? how much space? How many roosters (if any)? How often do you have to take for meat, or replace as they "age out"? Playing the averages.

Nor do I imagine things to be somehow set in stone. I'm improving my pasture (for lack of better term) as my understanding grows and weaknesses are identified in the way my chickens perform on it (or in the feed I buy for them). I'm improving my chickens too, selecting for those which do best on my lands, under my management conditions, based on my needs for eggs and meat, and the cratures they are in competiton with (ducks, rabbits, goats) or risk predation by (owls, hawks, eagles, trash panda).

Some here on BYC are of the belief "I'm doing it, everyone can (or should) do it" - while often ignoring the very personal circumstances that make their flock desirable or successful (however they define success). I'm of the belief that you probably shouldn't (or can't) do it the way I do, but there are the things we share in common you can and probably should consider as you mull it over for yourself. Intelligent choices, based on reasonable expectations.

If there is any article of faith for me, its that things are complicated, there are always trade-offs, and that physics (and biology) are uncaring. Others have their own beliefs, to which they cling with equal fervor.

/edit and I have internet back, but my spelling still sucks. I'm not fixing it.

 

[Badchickenpun]

Imma be honest - I only got about halfway through this thread. So if what I'm about to suggest has been mentioned, I apologize.

I am in a similar situation, though I am less concerned about healthy eggs and more concerned with giving my chickens and ducks the best life I can.

I have 22 birds in about 900 sq ft between the covered run and their fenced yard. There's ZERO grass in there now that it's summer during this #@#%&! drought. I've decided to build grazing boxes to supplement their regular diet of all flock pellets & oyster shell. That way, my birds will benefit from fresh greens and predator protection, and I'll benefit by saving some money on feed and from seeing greenery in that wasteland of a run again.

I'm going to make something similar to these here:
https://www.attainable-sustainable.net/diy-grazing-boxes/#:~:text=What are grazing boxes?,peck at the fresh buffet.

I feel you.
We would not have spent all the money time and effort into building the coop and run if not for an expectation of eggs and potentially meat if needed. However, we also do not want to raise birds that are prone to disease and live unhealthy lives, giving us unhealthy eggs. I think we can design an environment that can give them good living and healthier eggs than we would find in the store.
If there was a food that met all the needs and did not contain debatably unhealthy ingredients (and did not cost a fortune) We would just do that. So we plan to give them the healthiest stuff available in the local farm feed store and supplement with natrually occuring bugs and greens... Trying to strike a happy medium.
How

 

[Perris]

Chief among these are Methionine, Lysine, Threonine, Tryptophan. The first two are critical enough that they appear on US (but not EU or Canada) feed labels.

You make such a big deal out of this (here and elsewhere). A tin of sardines has them in spades.