decent breeding for the backyard?

[lurky]

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[twigg]

instead of made-in-China-quality hatchery junk? hmm

Large hatcheries tend to produce high quality birds, not junk.

Occasionally they suffer from health issues due to many birds all in one place, and quality can vary a little from year to year, with some hatcheries doing better in a given year.

As to general standards, hatchery birds are generally a very safe buy.

What you won't necessarily get are show quality chickens. These tend to be produced from prize-winning birds and can command very high prices.

Buying locally from a breeder will allow you normally to see the parent stock, and the conditions they are kept in, and meet the owner (we buy from people, so first we buy the person

)

Buying locally from most feedstores means you are getting hatchery birds, but you do get to see them first.​

 

[twigg]

Oh, by the way, none of them have "China" stamped on their butts. lol

Incubation of eggs can be traced back over 2000 years, to both Egypt and China.

*Made in China* might be a very good thing, in this case

 

[KrisRose]

Oops, you got me there, Twigg! Since chickens originated in Asia that would probably be an appropriate stamp on their hineys!!

 

[Professional]

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Join the American Poultry Association. Even though you're not interested in exhibiting, they will have plenty of resources for you. Contact the New England District Director, Mr Don Nelson in RI. He has some of the best RI Reds around, and they're real RI Reds, not the red stars passed off by many hathceries as RI Reds. His culls will be excellent for your purposes. He can also put you in touch with another RI breeder of very nice Plymouth Rocks. You can probably arrange to pick up from both on the same trip.

Keep in mind one thing about commercial hatcheries, they are in business to sell as many chicks as possible. One way to go about that is to have hens which are excellent layers. They can't afford to keep around any bird that isn't pulling her weight. True, they will sometimes only slightly resemble the show birds, but if you want that, then go looking for show stock. That and hybrids are the only genetic "junk" that you really need to worry about from hatcheries. That's not to say that the hybrids are bad, either, they are very good for some purposes, but you seem to be concerned with getting something of known origin. Those hatchery birds do tend to be better layers than some strains of show stock, simply because that is what they're selected for.

As big hatcheries go, McMurray doesn't own a single bird. They buy eggs from other breeders, hatch and ship, so you're at the mercy of the particular unknown breeder. Some people get wonderful birds from there, even approaching show quality, others, well, not so much. They're infamous for mixing up breeds. They offer for you to pick one of this, two of that, but when you start getting into complicated orders like that, it's only natural that the minimum wage hack who's assembling the orders, doesn't have much of a concern for getting it right. That, and the fact that they seem to be having some issues with disease this year, in many shipments around the country, might make you want to look somewhere else.

Ideal is not bad, again,as far as commercial hatcheries go. They keep all of their own breeders. Privett in New Mexico isn't bad either. Dwayne Urch in MN is the last of the commercial show men. By that, I mean that he bridges the gap between the show and production worlds. Years ago, poultry shows and standards were designed to produce a bird that did actually what it was bred to do. Today, color and other factors have gotten away from that, and it's now more of a beauty pagent. Dwayne is from that old show=production age. He's probably your best bet if want pure birds that will look as much as possible like they're supposed to, but will still lay or produce meat at a decent rate. Some people have had problems with his service, mostly those who buy hatching eggs through the mail, but they have unreasonable expectations already anyway. I've never gotten birds from him myself, but I do have some on order for this year. He's been very up front with me about what is and isn't available, and is a very pleasant guy to talk with.

Mr Don Schrider is the guy to see if you want Buckeyes. He pretty much single handedly took the breed, and by selective breeding over the last few years, has brought it back up to the type and weight that it's supposed to be, to be the same dual purpose bird that it was designed for years ago. His stock came from Dwayne Urch, which was the only flock available from the original lines. Contact the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy for Don's info. I haven't had good experiences with Sandhill. I don't want to rehash all that here, but it's on other threads to see. Suffice it to say that I don't recommend them. Good luck.

 

[greyfields]

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Your observation is astute. There are only a few dozen hatcheries in the US that sell online/retail to end consumers. They all get their hatching eggs from the same breeders scattered across the US. If you buy a chick from Murray McMurray you would very possibly get the same chick from Ideal (using two examples).

I've never been to Murray McMurray or even seen photos. But I imagine there aren't any breeding chickens on the premises... or if there are, they're probably only breeding a couple dozen of the breeds they sell.

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You have to find small scale breeders by going to an APA show or any other regional chicken clubs you may have. You'll probably find, though, that most people are focusing on only 1 or 2 breeds at most. They are also breeding them to the Standard of Perfection, which is an appearance based measure. It does not necessarily relate to good practical performance for the backyard, such as laying, vigor, disease resistance, longevity, etc.

And then you will probably also find they started their flocks through commercial hatcheries and have improved them through line breeding.

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A lot of 'local' places are catering to commercial operations and may not even have a website. Here is feathersite's comprehensive list:

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/BRKHatcheries.html

I recommend buying locally if possible, since teh chick's well being is affected by how long they are in transit. However, you may find you have no option except for getting chickes from the Midwest.

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You have very few options if you just want a handful of hens. The only avenue I can suggest is start to attend farmer's markets and talk to the people offering eggs. I usually sell hens at PoL or laying at $15-20 each.

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Don't worry too much about the quality of hens from commercial hatcheries.

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The minimum orders may be 25 chicks, so it may not work for you. I wouldn't worry about the source.

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Yes.

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Yes.

 

[Professional]

They are also breeding them to the Standard of Perfection, which is an appearance based measure. It does not necessarily relate to good practical performance for the backyard, such as laying, vigor, disease resistance, longevity, etc.

This is a common misperception, usually made by those who don't actually breed show stock themselves. The truth is just the opposite, most of the standards were designed to describe a body type that is efficient at doing what the breed was designed for. A leghorn's body type, long and lean is great to promote egg production, a cornish's short back and muscular breast makes meat. Rocks, RI Reds, Hamps and others, are sort of a middle ground that made them fairly good at both. There are a few breeds which have always been ornamental since their creation, but the majority of the standards do describe a body type that is conducive to the breeds' original intent.​

 

[vermontgal]

Thanks for the good discussions (and laughs!) and suggestions. I have read a lot of posts already prior to posting my question but some of the replies here are very helpful.

I've read about Gordie and Duane Urch and troubles with Sandhill being persnickety about their time being more precious than your / my time. Neither Duane nor Gordie offer all the breeds I want, and so the problem of chicks staying warm in the mail (25+) could land me with 50-75 chicks, which would definitely not fit on my wee plot of city land, let alone what my neighbors will think! In general I am lucky to have good neighbors who are generally excited about the idea of chickens, and in fact we may work out some chicken-tractoring in their yards / fenced gardens.

Thanks, greyfields, for the suggestion to talk to my local farmers' market folks who are selling eggs. We are lucky here in VT to now have WINTER farmers markets this year so I can do that the first weekend in April. (Winter farmer's markets are just once a month.) And I also have email contact with some of my local farmers via various VT connections.

As some of you suggested, maybe it's not so horrible trying hatchery birds. Depending how things go, I might have these chickens for 5-10 years, so I'm sort of looking to do it right, if possible.

I'll do a little more poking around, and PM a couple people (chicktasticvt).
You also remind me that I do have a few connections via email with local people with chickens (including my local planning / zoning staff, believe it or not!) and I should ask all of them whether they are breeding.

Thanks for the welcomes, too. I appreciate the friendliness to a person who's new.