Decrowing Roosters.

[centrarchid]

I am not suggesting such a proceedure has application for anyone in my situation and my birds, rather I was trying to relate the complexity of behaviors and the role of vocalizations. Also when a rooster is a threat to his own offspring, the keeper needs to re-evaluate husbandry technique since I typically see such poor behavior when management is botched. I am reasonably familiar with challenges of keeping mixed sex groups of poultry in urban settings having done so while in college. Present interactions with such urban poultry enthusiast has made it apparent many are also interested in behavior as well occasional opportunities for birds to free-range forage the back yard. The induced voice change will impact the interactions of modified birds with others which should at least be considered. Otherwise it could be like using a castrated animal as brood stock.

 

[janinepeters]

There seems to be a lot of judgement being thrown about concerning others opinions.

I think if you could ask the bird, hatchet or scalpel?, he'd probably take the chance at a quiet existence.

Probably, but it's not important to me to prolong the lives of animals as much as possible. It's much more important to me to provide them with quality of life that lets them express their natural instincts and behaviors as much as possible, and not subject them to suffering.

People have to eat something, so I have no problem with quickly and painlessly dispatching the birds that are too loud, too aggressive, not laying many eggs, etc. One bird eaten from a backyard flock is one less from a factory farm, and that is a good thing. And if one chooses to bury rather than eat the bird, due to feelings of attachment, then soil decomposing organisms get to eat it, so it stays in the food web and doesn't go to waste.

I prefer that scenario over surgically molding animals to look and sound like what we want. The latter makes it too easy for people to focus on whatever they want, rather than the animal's quality of life. I think animals would benefit more from people making an effort to understand and empathize with them.

The argument that they don't notice, they don't care, they don't suffer, etc, etc., when we dig abscesses out of their feet without an anesthetic, when we confine them 4 to a small cage, when we forget to feed or water them, or when we modify the voice box, etc., is just plain weak. The fact is, we don't really know how they experience these things. I, for one, would rather err on the side of caution and assume that they do suffer, and make decisions accordingly.

I disagree with your earlier statement that there is no right or wrong, just different options. In my world, there are rights and wrongs, but sometimes there are gray areas, and we have to do our best to arrive at what is most right. That is why this discussion is good. I hope you don't see comments from me or anyone else who does not like this procedure as judging you. It's about how we treat animals in general, not about you personally. You asked for opinions, and you've received many. Not everyone agrees with you.

 

[Pele]

Probably, but it's not important to me to prolong the lives of animals as much as possible. It's much more important to me to provide them with quality of life that lets them express their natural instincts and behaviors as much as possible, and not subject them to suffering.

People have to eat something, so I have no problem with quickly and painlessly dispatching the birds that are too loud, too aggressive, not laying many eggs, etc. One bird eaten from a backyard flock is one less from a factory farm, and that is a good thing. And if one chooses to bury rather than eat the bird, due to feelings of attachment, then soil decomposing organisms get to eat it, so it stays in the food web and doesn't go to waste.

I prefer that scenario over surgically molding animals to look and sound like what we want. The latter makes it too easy for people to focus on whatever they want, rather than the animal's quality of life. I think animals would benefit more from people making an effort to understand and empathize with them.

The argument that they don't notice, they don't care, they don't suffer, etc, etc., when we dig abscesses out of their feet without an anesthetic, when we confine them 4 to a small cage, when we forget to feed or water them, or when we modify the voice box, etc., is just plain weak. The fact is, we don't really know how they experience these things. I, for one, would rather err on the side of caution and assume that they do suffer, and make decisions accordingly.

I disagree with your earlier statement that there is no right or wrong, just different options. In my world, there are rights and wrongs, but sometimes there are gray areas, and we have to do our best to arrive at what is most right. That is why this discussion is good. I hope you don't see comments from me or anyone else who does not like this procedure as judging you. You asked for opinions, and you've received many. Not everyone agrees with you.

Thank you, this is exactly along the lines of what I was attempting to express as well. If this was a modification of anything other than the animal's primary form of existing in it's social web, then I would be more inclined to look at this favorably.

But when you start supposing that a rooster would 'choose' one thing over another, that gets to be way too esoteric, and inaccurate. In my view, a rooster would never choose an option that would cripple his ability to mate, just as a human man would never ever choose something similar (seriously, ask any dude which he'd rather loose first, his life or his stuff. Most will give you the first as an answer). But that's conjecture based on opinion.

The problem with this all is that the animal will inevitably end up back in a pen with it's own kind after being modified to be less capable of communicating with it's kind. That's my issue with it. The rooster is being modified for human company, then being dumped with other chickens. It doesn't make sense, and clearly isn't in the best interest of the bird. If people were electing for this surgery for a house-chicken that did not need to communicate with it's own kind, that would make the situation more palatable. But that won't be the majority here. Just casual surgery of convenience, then 'ho hum, back in the pen you go'. No consideration for the bird.

 

[DomesticDiva12]

I will preface this by saying I like my chickens but ultimately I see them as food. Rural Wisconsinite surrounded by farms here
I would never pay $200, and I don't say never often, to have a rooster decrowed. Chickens do not live all that long, so the investment vs time you would get out of it would not be practical. As others have said, in order to really know people love the rooster they would have to listen to it crow for a long period of time anyways. And for people like me, chicken dumpling soup vs $200 for a procedure that may or may not work...may or may not traumitize the bird....may or may not cause the death of the bird. I've never paid $200 for a cosmetic (spay/neuter included) procedure on a cat or dog and they are much friendlier and better housetrained
Not meant to be rude. Honestly, I see the value to this as more like $50. But I am also the type that wouldn't pay more than $10 an adult bird, rare and fancy or not.

 

[centrarchid]

I will preface this by saying I like my chickens but ultimately I see them as food. Rural Wisconsinite surrounded by farms here
I would never pay $200, and I don't say never often, to have a rooster decrowed. Chickens do not live all that long, so the investment vs time you would get out of it would not be practical. As others have said, in order to really know people love the rooster they would have to listen to it crow for a long period of time anyways. And for people like me, chicken dumpling soup vs $200 for a procedure that may or may not work...may or may not traumitize the bird....may or may not cause the death of the bird. I've never paid $200 for a cosmetic (spay/neuter included) procedure on a cat or dog and they are much friendlier and better housetrained
Not meant to be rude. Honestly, I see the value to this as more like $50. But I am also the type that wouldn't pay more than $10 an adult bird, rare and fancy or not.

With respect to longevity if the "pet", that can approximate that of a typical dog. Even with a $250 charge for service, when taking into account the maintenance cost of a chicken, it is a lot less than even a small dog.

Some folks with high value individual birds because of very specific use might not consider they fowl as meat or eggs, especially if much training or conditioning is involved. I use a few birds as teaching tools and want a given bird to be usable for several years at least to cut down on the effort and time required to get them to do what they do.

 

[bluedogsonly]

The chicks that are in the brooder and the eggs turning dark in the incubator show that it doesnt "cripple his ability to mate". Just mailed a decrowed roo, 1 wk post op, with a hen to NC where he was left an extra night at the post office. She found both birds doing well plus an egg that was layed on the way. So it would seem that proper shipping really does not affect them as negatively as some would think. She loves the pair and is really excited to begin this whole chicken adventure.

Just remember the value of the bird is not always economic.

Thanks all

Dr. James

 

[somadlyinlove]

I'm all for it just because it will save some roosters. I don't mind roosters crowing but I can't keep many because of neighbors. Seems odd to say it's not ok to do surgery on Roosters because it's just for the humans benefit When millions of roosters are killed because humans don't want to hear them crow. I will say though I don't think the vast majority of people will spend that much to have it done.

 

[Countrywantabe]

I've been meaning to ask- The doctor said he maintained a small flock of roosters to practice on. Could you post pictures of these birds along with their decriptions and if someone was intrested, could they pick out and purchase a rooster that you have already decrowed? I had two roosters who crowed non stop but they went back to their previous owners. I am not sure if this is something we could do right now at Christmas and all but the idea intrests me. I'd like to see images of the birds you practice on and hear what their personalities are like. Thank you for your effort in this area. There is only one vet in my area that even treats birds and they don't know much about chickens. Thanks again. Happy Holidays.

 

[Hillschicks]

I love when our roosters crow... Its a shame some people force their will on others and get roosters banned... People like that need to stfu... Anyone ever bitches about my roosters crowing i will get a flock of guineas and a couple donkeys... See if they prefer the rooster

 

[bluedogsonly]

I've been meaning to ask- The doctor said he maintained a small flock of roosters to practice on. Could you post pictures of these birds along with their decriptions and if someone was intrested, could they pick out and purchase a rooster that you have already decrowed? I had two roosters who crowed non stop but they went back to their previous owners. I am not sure if this is something we could do right now at Christmas and all but the idea intrests me. I'd like to see images of the birds you practice on and hear what their personalities are like. Thank you for your effort in this area. There is only one vet in my area that even treats birds and they don't know much about chickens. Thanks again. Happy Holidays.

I did have a few Partridge Wyandottes that have been decrowed. But something came through and wiped out that pen. I just got rid of a pair of standard grey game roosters too, but the were not friendly. I do have a young black copper maran growing up now and he is crazy tame, and a few blue splash japanese chicks growing up too. But it'll be a while for those. If you are really interested I could do a bit of hunting around for something. What would you be interested in having? I dont really like gathering fowl from other sources due to disease issues.

I have been batting around the idea of ordering the "rooster special" from a hatchery and growing them out and decrowing them. That would allow a greater pick of breeds. Right now all I pretty much have are AGB and my gal has a few OEG bantams and the few Japs. The only thing is they would not be as socialized as a roo growing up with the owner. There hasn't been much feedback for me to start a process like that.

Dr. James

P.S. Thanks for the positive note.