Deworming experience from start to finish.

[cowcreekgeek]

Better living through pharmaceuticals!

Farma .. pharmak .. pharmac ... drugs may be req'd, so as to understand how guineas (bein' so ridiculously stupid as they are) can apparently drive your car?

 

[centrarchid]

Very good answer, centrarchid, as to the damage from parasites vary by age/genetics/health of the bird, and levels of infestation, but also -- the type of parasite involved, and levels of resistance the host has to the parasites involved. Some parasites can actually be beneficial to chickens, whereas others can quickly wreak havoc.

This thread's been very beneficial to me, in that it's raised Q's that I didn't know the A's to, compelling me to research further ... I thought all tapeworms that could be found w/in chickens could be seen w/ the naked eye, but it turns out that some can't. And, just one can produce over a million eggs in it's lifetime, and some of 'em can't be eradicated once established -- makes isolation for thirty days far more than a viral/bacterial defense, and wire-based floor systems for isolation an extremely good idea, for those bringin' adult birds into their flock(s).

Speaking of resistance? It's the parasites that develop resistance to improperly used treatments, rather than the bird themselves (i.e. using Ivermectin for external parasites can result in resistant worms). But, birds can individually develop resistance to the specific coccidia that they're exposed to, for example ... but, they're still susceptible to others, if ever introduced.

In your own efforts to control parasites, a better practice might be to treat your entire flock, but control/prevent re-infestation by targeting the intermediate hosts. Relocating your flock(s) to fresh ground might help as well, most esp. if it's clean/dry and sunny. But, for certain, removing those severely affected/infected to an alternate location would be best ... raisin' these birds on wire for a month, over an area that could be regularly slashed/burned, or otherwise treated, might be an ideal way of reducing the populations of the worms, 'cause breakin' the life-cycle is really the only truly effective way of dealin' w/ 'em.

I originally hoped to be all natural/organic this time around, but I've adjusted to include the use of those chemical alternative that are well-proven for safety, and/or break down entirely to naturally found substances. Knowin' that even a relatively harmless roundworm can migrate, and wind up in the egg I eat, is enough to 'cause me to believe all worms w/in my birds must die ~'-)

Treating entire flock when most not having problems defeats selection process. All animals must be challenged by parasite to distinguish who can carry load without impact from those that can not and those that are simply less inclined to become infected in first place owing to behavior or physiology.

Yes, parasites in treated host and exposed environment can develope resistance which I effort to avoid. I have about 6 acres to play around with and none is parasite free. Chickens are not the primary host, something else that does not respect my containment or property boundaries is primary host and that critter is effectively a vector.

 

[dawg53]

Quote: Centrarchid. Do you realize how much damage ONE large roundworm does inside the host? How many eggs ONE female large roundworm lays in one day and deposits those eggs onto your soil to be picked up by your other birds and infecting them?
One worm is one worm too many. It's best to worm ALL birds at once, repeating worming in 10 days to eliminate larva hatched from eggs missed by the initial worming. How many eggs will these large roundworms will lay in one day?

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Treating entire flock when most not having problems defeats selection process. All animals must be challenged by parasite to distinguish who can carry load without impact from those that can not and those that are simply less inclined to become infected in first place owing to behavior or physiology.

Yes, parasites in treated host and exposed environment can develope resistance which I effort to avoid. I have about 6 acres to play around with and none is parasite free. Chickens are not the primary host, something else that does not respect my containment or property boundaries is primary host and that critter is effectively a vector.

Unless you are breeding your birds, using their individual resistance to internal parasites as a factor in your selection process? You're really only breeding more worms, which you're constantly having to provide for w/ additional feed and diminished growth w/in your flock.

I have to agree w/ Dawg53 here, in that one worm is too many, however unrealistic eliminating every one of 'em would be. Wild birds, other animals, people's shoes, ants, some beetles, roaches, snails, earthworms, slugs, etc. serve as intermediate hosts and/or possible vectors, but the problem remains -- the worms arrive, and the cycle begins, and then continues until placed in check. And, once you begin fightin' back effectively? You can eradicate the majority.

Six acres provides plenty of room to allow you to change things around. Worm's eggs, and most of the things that eat 'em, do very poorly in sunny/dry locations, and you can further eliminate many of the intermediate hosts by chemical or by natural means ... you can even introduce insects that will not act as hosts, but will thrive on those that do. You could then start a new flock in that location, or relocate the existing one, once you've effectively treated them.

 

[tgooberbutt]

Third round of Albendazole (30mg/kg) soaked into bread cubes. This time I added in 10mg/kg of Praziquntel with a bit of water and also soaked the bread cubes in the mixture.
No proglottids in the poop, and no roundworms to be seen... I'll try to do another fecal float later this week and see if I can find any eggs...though I don't seem to be very good at it :/

Chickens all seem to be vibrant and active. They still seem a bit skinny, I can still feel their keel bone....about how long does it take for them to put weight back on?

 

[dawg53]

Third round of Albendazole (30mg/kg) soaked into bread cubes. This time I added in 10mg/kg of Praziquntel with a bit of water and also soaked the bread cubes in the mixture.
No proglottids in the poop, and no roundworms to be seen... I'll try to do another fecal float later this week and see if I can find any eggs...though I don't seem to be very good at it :/

Chickens all seem to be vibrant and active. They still seem a bit skinny, I can still feel their keel bone....about how long does it take for them to put weight back on?

The roundworms are history with albendazole, it's the tapes that are persistant, the praziquantel will finish them off. Be patient and give your birds time to put weight back on. Buttermilk mixed in their feed for a few days will help rebuild their immune system.

 

[casportpony]

Third round of Albendazole (30mg/kg) soaked into bread cubes. This time I added in 10mg/kg of Praziquntel with a bit of water and also soaked the bread cubes in the mixture.
No proglottids in the poop, and no roundworms to be seen... I'll try to do another fecal float later this week and see if I can find any eggs...though I don't seem to be very good at it :/

Chickens all seem to be vibrant and active. They still seem a bit skinny, I can still feel their keel bone....about how long does it take for them to put weight back on?

I'd get a baseline weight on each one now and weigh them once a week until you see improvement. Any further weight loss could mean that there is something else going on.

 

[centrarchid]

The striving for complete elimination of worms in an outdoor setting is impractical and ultimately self defeating. Birds treated outdoors release small amounts of medication into soil exposing some worms to less than lethal doses making so selection of medication tolerance in worm population is inevitable. This does not even take into account improper regimen which also operates. You are systematically creating strains of super worms that ultimately operate despite efforts with a given de-wormer forcing you to switch to another medication to start process anew.

If you are serious about control, treatment (proper medication and regimen) is done to entire flock under conditions where re-infection is unlikely which means indoors. Then you keep them inside or at least off ground. Otherwise you are simply in a vicious cycle of treating and re-infecting.

I am not impressed with the over the top reference to worms as being such a big threat to poultry. With respect to damage over long-term, my games hens are never wormed yet they live for many years, likely longer than many of the frequently de-wormed fluffy breeds. This has resulted in a strain of birds that very seldom evens shows outward signs worm infection. Those that do are culled so yes a selection program is in place. Culling for worm infection is seldom needed in the games. Culling for worminess in American Dominiques has been a bigger issue and that is likely resulting from some combination of interactions between birds and resident worm population (genetics). I would love to see how chicken strains that have not been managed with aid of de-wormers stack up against the strains that de-wormed propholactically like many reccomend; especially when use of de-wormers is not religiously applied. There will likely be a very obvious pattern in which birds are impacted most.

Six acres is not adequate to prevent reinfection by simply moving birds about. The worms are not only in the chickens. I move birds and select for resistance keeping impacts of worms in check.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Third round of Albendazole (30mg/kg) soaked into bread cubes. This time I added in 10mg/kg of Praziquntel with a bit of water and also soaked the bread cubes in the mixture.
No proglottids in the poop, and no roundworms to be seen... I'll try to do another fecal float later this week and see if I can find any eggs...though I don't seem to be very good at it :/

Chickens all seem to be vibrant and active. They still seem a bit skinny, I can still feel their keel bone....about how long does it take for them to put weight back on?

Wondering if there's anything you could do to prevent (or, at least, slow down) re-infestation. I use permethrin, but w/o piperonyl butoxide (or any other synergist), about a month prior to relocating my birds, so as to eliminate most insects. Obviously, some are gonna crawl/fly in, but death surely interrupts any life cycle ~'-)

Also, the use of Apple Cider Vinegar in their water at the rate of four teaspoons to the gallon (but never in galvanized metal containers) will improve the uptake of nutrient/vitamins, and create a more hostile environment for the internal parasites as well, both of which will help emaciated birds to regain weight.

 

[tgooberbutt]

Good recommendation to get a base weight and to start keeping tabs on their weight gain.

@centraarchid touches on an issue that I've been thinking about and struggling with. I'm not too keen on the idea of proactive/preventitive bi-annual deworming...for the potential drug resistance issue, the downtime/withdrawal periods, and just the idea of having constantly medicated birds. One of the reasons I got my chickens was to have nice organic eggs. That being said, I also want my chickens to live nice, long healthy (not worm-burdened) lives.

My chickens will free-range, that's not negotiable. And they are going to walk on and scratch up dirt...they will eat earthworms, and other vectors and intermediate hosts too...I can't (nor do I want to watch them all day). Are chickens and worms just suppose to have some sort of symbiotic relationship? Instinctively, I don't think so...So does this mean I'm between a rock and a hard place? As I see it for the long term, are my choices:

1. Put them on an active worming schedule, and they live relatively worm free, but just not organic...but they'll have nice long lives...
2. Don't worm, feed them well and let a worm/chicken relationship exist? Will the chickens still live long, happy lives?
3. Have the chickens live in a sterile bubble. (and they would NOT be happy about this option...so it's not going to happen :/ )

@dawg53 - are you recommending buttermilk because it's a probiotic? I assume yogurt-ish things would accomplish the same goal? Do I need to supplement with more protein too?