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Difference between Erminette Breed and Erminette Color?

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Spangled, May 8, 2014.

  1. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    while Erminette seems to be the effort of melanising a White bird, Exchequer leghorns are the opposite, the start with a recessive mottling background which is all black with white mottles, and turn that birds as white as possible but retaining some of the black, giving it an Erminette look to it, other genes can produce similar results like Splash blues



    exchequer leghorns shoul be more white than they are black.

    nice drawing
    [​IMG]

    and show birds from Europe

    Male
    [​IMG]

    Female..

    [​IMG]
     
  2. IowaBlueCurt

    IowaBlueCurt Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Nicalandia,

    This is great stuff. And you are absolutely right, Erminette color and Exchequer color while looking the same are produced by a completely different set of genes. There is so much confusion out there concerning these differences, and I think you've presented these differences in a way that is easy to understand.

    And THANK YOU for posting pics of what Exchequer Leghorns are supposed to look like. I get tired of seeing birds that look like Anconas being sold as Exchequer Leghorns! Who in the States has Exchequer Leghorns of correct color and type?


    For you history guru's out there. I had read in an old publication once that there were Rocks and Wyandottes that once exemplified the correct Erminette pattern. Can this be validated?
     
  3. antheat

    antheat Out Of The Brooder

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    My chicks come from Sand Hill - as to both colors, I can't tell as yet since they are yellow.
     
  4. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    While some may be wondering as to why some Erminette display gold leakage aswell, well thats because the ones showing this pattern are not based on Extended blacks as you would expect from a solid black(turned into erminette by dominant white) these birds showing gold are actyally based on Gold Birchen ER/ER instead of E/E extended black..


    how does an Erminette ER birchen looks? well we dont have many breeds to show as an example, the closest I would use are the Splash(double dose of blue Bl/Bl) Lemon blue Modern English Games, as you can also see the while most splash birds still show hues of blue/grey breeds like this(modern grames) can be made to look like Erminette if you beed for it, meaning you can have an Erminette looking bird based on Splash blue based on ER/ER or E/E too


    here a pair of Modern games from the feather site..
    [​IMG]



    so for Erminette just change the Splash for Heterozygous dominant white and you will have such birds

    ER/ER s+/s+ I//+ should be the genotype
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  5. Chris09

    Chris09 Circle (M) Ranch

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    What do you think nicalandia, Erminette

    (Not My Bird)
    [​IMG]
     
  6. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    as I said before, Erminette is just a phonotype that could be reproduced by many genes, Does he looks Erminette? Yes, is he actually Erminette as in I/i+? I dont know
     
  7. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    research paper about how I/i+ phenotype will be different , in one case i+/I were bred back to parent leghorn lines and the i+/I Were indistinguishable from pure I/I and only an outcross would provide proof of I/i+ heterozygosity and when I/+ were bred back to all black Spanish breed the I/i+ darker every consecutive back cross to black parent, this proves that this traits can be enhanced by a well planed breeding plan


    source> http://www.genetics.org/content/48/9/1141.full.pdf

    [​IMG]
     
  8. IowaBlueCurt

    IowaBlueCurt Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Very interesting article. Do you suppose modifers are at play in how much black is allowed to express in the I/i heteros? Maybe the Leghorns in this cross experiment had modifiers that severely limited how much black would be allowed to express, but the Spanish outcross brought with it a group of modifiers that allowed a more liberal expression?
     
  9. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    that is Exactly what happened, White leghorns have hordes of eumelanin inhibitors and the black spanish breed had eumelanin enhancers,


    in this paper we get a chance to see what genes most production white leghorns hide under the white, so the list is as follows>

    White leghorns are

    E/E = Extended Black
    S/S= dominant sex linked silver
    Bl/Bl = Splash Blue
    I/I = Dominant White
    B/B = Sex linked Barring
    c/c = Recessive white(not all white leghorns carry this, but on this paper this birds do)
    Id/Id = Dermal Melanin inhibitor sex linked

    Black Spanish(most black based birds will have this genes, including the black Erminette)

    E/E = Most black birds are based on Extended black, others are based on Birchen
    S/S(or s+/s+) = self black birds can hide gold or silver
    Ml/Ml = Melanotic Turns hackles and saddle all black
    Pg/Pg = most black birds carry the pattern gene, on itself Pg cant make any pattern on most genetic backgrounds and is also a melaizer,
    i+/i+ = wildtype recessive non white
    bl+/bl+ = wildtype recessive non blue
    b+/b+ = wildtype recessive non barred
    Id+/id+ = wildtype recessive non dermal inhibitor
    C+/C+ = wildtype dominant non recessive white

    so the F1s of this cross would have had a genetic make up of E/E S/? Ml/ml Pg/pg+ Bl/bl+ B/b+ C+/c id+/ and as mentioned the first F1s of the cross showed small amount of black flecks(resembling the California White egg layer)


    Each Consecutive breeding back to white leghorn produced more and more Bl/Bl B/B c/c homozygotes that were also I/i+, and for the each consecutive breeding back to the black breed the melanizers got also in homozygous form and produced these Erminette colored birds, and this is what the Erminette color is about, a breed with with full set of melanizers ganging up on that Lonely I gene(i+ is also fighting back doing its part on this battle) , now two copies of I(I/I) are too strong to fight back, thats why you see white Erminette too when they are I/I


    so in simple terms, the Paper shows how a bunch of black feather Diluters are ganging up a lonely i+ gene to make the I/i+ white leghorn line pure white, and how a bunch of black feather enhancers are ganging up on a lonely I gene to make the I/i+ black spanish line have an Erminette phenotype,

    hope this helps

    Marvin
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  10. IowaBlueCurt

    IowaBlueCurt Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Marvin,

    This is exactly what I was looking for! Perfecto. Thank you.

    I came across some information that stated Paint Silkies when bred together will segregate out in black, paint, and white birds. If this is true, then for all practical purposes, the Paints are Erminette in expression?
     

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