Does my vet know what he is doing?

[jingles]

Hi all,

I am very new to chickens and am trying to get a grip on all the ailments that can affect my girls and the best place to go to get advice on how to save them when they are sick - I'm thinking here is a good bet

My 7 month old Plymouth Rock Frankie was off on Monday - still eating & active but slightly separate from the flock. By Tuesday she wasn't eating, was a bit wobbly & bad foul smelling diarrhea (still a good weight with redish comb). So off to our vets we went!

Vet checks her mouth (fine), lungs, eyes & nostrils (fine), squeezes belly. He can see some blood in her stools. Concludes probably coccidiosis - we have had a lot of rain. Advises not to test stop sample as info gained would be minimal as 'everything shows up in poo'. Gives her an injection of metronidazole & sends us home with more. Says not to treat my reminding 3 unless they become symptomatic so they will build up a good immunity.

Frankie spend the night in the house with the heater, but is dead in the morning .

I would like to ask what diagnosis & medication advice I would have gotten from here. The vet seems very knowledgeable, but when I ask more questions I think there may be some gaps!

I have ordered some corid online (seems to be the appropriate treatment for coccidiosis) and am hoping no other chooks get sick before it arrives. Not sure if I should treat them anyway if it arrives.

Chickens are much more complicated than dogs!!!

Cheers,

Julia

 

[Folly's place]

Welcome! So sorry for your loss. Can you find someone who treats birds? Or contact your state veterinary school, if you have one. Do have fecal samples run, maybe at another veterinarian's? Mary

 

[junebuggena]

Antibiotics don't treat coccidia. It's not a bacteria, it's a protozoa. I would be looking for another vet. To treat coccidia, you need to use a thiamine blocker like amprolium, the active ingredient in Corid. Your other birds will not build an immunity, but they will develop a resistance to the strains of coccidia in their environment. There is always the potential for them to be exposed to a different strain and become sick. As you have learned, delaying treatment for even a day or two can be fatal. If you even suspect coccidiosis, treat immediately. It won't do any harm.

 

[jingles]

Thanks both,

That was my conclusion too. I should have worried when I asked him if coccidia were Protozoa (from my reading prior to going to the vets), and he said no! As I am still learning I thought I must have been mistaken. It's a steep learning curve!!

 

[Michael Apple]

In the future, watch the condition of droppings on a daily basis. Under the roosts and watching them expel fresh droppings in the morning, when time allows, can help identify potential problems before they become life threatening. Because of this cyclic multiplication of coccidia protozoa, large numbers of intestinal cells are destroyed. This happens in one week, and much damage can happen in a matter of a week or two depending on the numbers. Once enough damage is done to the intestinal walls, it is irreversible and the bird slowly dies from inability to digest food, no nutrient absorption, and a weakened immune system.

The first year of life is when the flock is most at risk, and most people seem to think coccidiosis means blood in droppings. When that is noticed, damage is already taking place. Infections are happening often when no blood is seen at all. It is popular to see, even among very knowledgeable poultry science professors, the mention of "outbreaks usually occur when birds are between 3 and 8 weeks of age." So with that people develop all sorts of false notions about immunity/treatment during that time period; i.e. not treating with preventative medicine and introducing small amounts of dirt from outside in the brooder, using ACV, herbs, etc. Even feed tags for medicated feed state to use that "sole source of ration for the first 18 weeks".

A chicken does not develop immunity in the first 4-5 months of age. Environment, soil conditions and climatic conditions all determine the amount of coccidia present. Proper diet and preventative use of ionophores like Amprolium or antiprotozoals like Toltrazuril will prevent rapid infections in the intestinal tract. Years ago, out of ignorance, I disregarded preventative treatment and saw a vast difference once I began using preventative treatments for the first year of birds' life.

The vet figured he would use the broad spectrum anti-protozoan drug like Metronidazole. Where Metronidazole is effective against protozoa which cause Histomoniasis (Blackhead) it is not an effective treatment against the protozoa which cause Coccidiosis in chickens.

 

[jingles]

Thanks for that. I don't think my chickens have ever had medicated feed - certainly not since I have had them (around 3-4 months of age). The remaining ones droppings look normal. Would you recommend treating with a short course of amprollium when it arrives just to be on the safe side? Is there an egg withholding period for this?

Cheers

 

[junebuggena]

There is no with-drawl period. It's not a medication, it's a thiamine blocker and has no lasting effects.

 

[MeepBeep]

Antibiotics don't treat coccidia. It's not a bacteria, it's a protozoa.

Some antibiotics are also effective against protozoa...

Metronidazole is one of those antibiotics, in birds it's the common treatment for blackhead protozoa, but it's not effective against the cocci protozoa and was the wrong treatment in this case...

Sulfonamide antibiotics can be use to treat cocci for example, but Amprolium is the most common treatment due to no withdrawal time...

 

[MeepBeep]

Would you recommend treating with a short course of amprollium when it arrives just to be on the safe side?

I would either switch over to medicated chick feed for a few weeks or treat the water for a few weeks with a preventative dosage and see if they can build up a natural immunity with the help of the Amprolium, if you see any signs or symptoms in any other bird or even suspect you might be seeing a further outbreak, increase the water dosage to treatment levels... Or be proactive and just go with treatment level water dosage...

 

[Michael Apple]

Thanks for that. I don't think my chickens have ever had medicated feed - certainly not since I have had them (around 3-4 months of age). The remaining ones droppings look normal. Would you recommend treating with a short course of amprollium when it arrives just to be on the safe side? Is there an egg withholding period for this?

Cheers

You're welcome. Kathy put out a good chart in regard to Amprolium dosage that is accurate and will save my time posting details: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/818879/updated-corid-and-amprol-amprolium-dosing

I use a preventative dose once a month for 5-7 days, with birds starting at around 2.5 weeks up to 9 months of age. This is done without using medicated feed. I follow up with poultry vitamins-electrolytes for 3 days after the last dose. I use Probios dispersible powder as an addition on one of those days.