Dog Breeding Question

[elsfieldchickens]

good luck

 

[Keric]

So you are saying you "put down" (which I assume you mean shot) ELEVEN puppies???

Wow!

I have been around livestock and raised livestock my entire life. I have also owned LGD's, as well as worked closely in a veterinary capacity with others who use/raise LGD's. I have NEVER heard of someone handling matters in the way you have just described.

Yes, LGD's have a purpose - to protect livestock. But to let them breed willy-nilly and then casually dispose of the offspring is something you should be ashamed of. If you cannot control when and WHO breeds your females, then you need to be responsible and spay them. If you feel you *MUST* breed, then leave one female intact. That way you can lock her up when she is in heat to ensure she does or does not get bred. And also so no other male dogs have to die because of her.... Ridiculous. And to state that your dogs are "of very high quality and from registered stock" shows how naive you are regarding GOOD stock. Registration papers do not guarantee anything. Show me some certs for hips, eyes, elbows etc and some proof of longevity and workability and I would be much more impressed.

And yes, I have "disposed" of dogs that were on my property and harassing my animals. If I knew who owned them, the owners were warned first. But the second time I saw the dog on my property, I take matters into my own hands, and the problem is gone. I would never let it progress to the point of injuries as you describe.

AMEN X2!!!!!

 

[Mac14]

We have a sweet purebred Golden Retriever named Jasmine, her owners were moving to the city and couldn't take her with them. But they had her spayed just before they GAVE (for free) her to us. My dad was a little disappointed, but my mom was like THANK GOODNESS! I don't really know what I am trying to say, so I will just stop now.

 

[Cowgirl71]

So you are saying you "put down" (which I assume you mean shot) ELEVEN puppies???

Wow!

I have been around livestock and raised livestock my entire life. I have also owned LGD's, as well as worked closely in a veterinary capacity with others who use/raise LGD's. I have NEVER heard of someone handling matters in the way you have just described. (Really? It's pretty commonplace around here. You do what you have to do.)

Yes, LGD's have a purpose - to protect livestock. But to let them breed willy-nilly and then casually dispose of the offspring is something you should be ashamed of. If you cannot control when and WHO breeds your females, then you need to be responsible and spay them. If you feel you *MUST* breed, then leave one female intact. That way you can lock her up when she is in heat to ensure she does or does not get bred. And also so no other male dogs have to die because of her.... Ridiculous. (Remember, we were already wanting to get rid of Marley because he was repeatedly chasing our cows and calves on our property. This can cause the cows and calves to lose weight and also cause the cows to have abortions from the stress, which is no small deal. Only reason we hadn't yet is because we wanted to maintain a good relationship with our neighbor and her husband.) And to state that your dogs are "of very high quality and from registered stock" shows how naive you are regarding GOOD stock. Registration papers do not guarantee anything. Show me some certs for hips, eyes, elbows etc and some proof of longevity and workability and I would be much more impressed. (Very few people around here would ask for anything like that. Most of them would prefer to save money and get a cheaper puppy. Big Guy is an excellent dog. He came from a reputable breeder and was $300 as a puppy without papers. The previous owner told us that she and her husband hated to sell him because he and his sons and daughters had proven to be really good dogs, the best they ever had in the last 40 years. However they used to have both goats and sheep, but recently they sold their goats and switched entirely to sheep. Big Guy couldn't make the change. He'd wander a lot, especially chasing coyotes, and the neighbor threatened to shoot him the next time he was on his property. So they had to sell him. Nommi is also an absolutely amazing dog with a hefty price tag. She is glued to her goats. When we bring the goats in for worming and hoof trimming she always comes in the stall with them and gets sandwiched by the goats on all sides. Heidi and Sheba are of average quality. But we thought we could also offer their puppies sired by a really good male at a more affordable price. If the demand for their puppies is less than what we believe it will be, we'll spay or sell one or both of them.)

And yes, I have "disposed" of dogs that were on my property and harassing my animals. If I knew who owned them, the owners were warned first. But the second time I saw the dog on my property, I take matters into my own hands, and the problem is gone. I would never let it progress to the point of injuries as you describe. (For the record, we contacted the neighbor within 24 hours of the first dogfight (it was a relatively mild brief fight, Big Guy received no injuries). Within 48 hours we had made a decision together. She gave us permission to put Marley down but was unwilling to have any part in it, which is understandable. So at that point we started trying to take care of the problem. Relatively speaking, right away. But as I described before, it wasn't as quick and simple as one may think it would be. It took a couple weeks and dozens of attempts before we were able to get in a good shot without endangering any of our own animals. In that time, both dogs sustained injuries. But we were NOT being "lotty-da" about the situation.)

But anyway, this will be my last post on this thread. I now know better than to be so honest and forthright on a public forum on such a controversial issue.

To all those who posted on this thread in a non-judgemental way, especially Sourland, I thank you.

(Edited to change the font color to make it easier on the eyes)

 

[dainerra]

what you described "Big Guys" breeder is NOT by any definition I have ever heard a good breeder. If they had heard your previous puppy experiences, a "good" breeder would have told you to get your females spayed.

And, no, you can't tell if a puppy is purebred just by looking at it. Plus, even if you aren't selling registered "papered" dogs, the only legal way to sell them as purebred is to DNA test each puppy against Big Daddy and prove that he is the father. That will run somewhere in the realm of $200 a puppy at least. If someone were to buy a pup and then later hear that there was a chance that Big Daddy isn't the daddy, they can and often will sue. If you haven't DNAed and the female was loose on your property, then the best you can do is say "they are probably purebred" which is going to kill any market that you will have for someone wanting a good livestock dog.

There is nothing wrong with breeding un-papered working dogs that are selected because of their working ability. However, there needs to be a plan in place to 1) prevent OOPS litters and 2) make sure that only 1 dog has access to the female.
From your description of her temperament, it's likely that Big Daddy is the first dog that was powerful enough to make her submit. You're lucky that she isn't seriously injured and, if you're lucky, that she won't pass that disposition down in the next generation.

I'm only telling you this because, if you are going to do this, then you need to stop shooting yourself in the foot. Get hips and elbows and hearts tested on your girls (and on Big Daddy if the previous owners didn't) There are probably more diseases than that but I know that those are the minimums. And before anyone says "oh we just want good working dogs," how can a dog work if it is lame by 6 months old? Or if it drops dead at 3 from a heart attack?

 

[dainerra]

But anyway, this will be my last post on this thread. I now know better than to be so honest and forthright on a public forum on such a controversial issue.

To all those who posted on this thread in a non-judgemental way, especially Sourland, I thank you.

(Edited to change the font color to make it easier on the eyes)

It's not that people are being harsh, they are simply telling you a sad fact of reality. If your goal is truly to fill a need for good reliable working dogs, then you are going to need a plan. Did you know that dogs have STDs just like people? At best they can leave the female sterile. At worst, they will kill an entire litter of puppies as they are born. Also, if your other female picked up one from the neighborhood dogs, she will pass it to Big Daddy. Then you will have a stud with an STD who will infect any future female that you bring onto the property.

Also, the reason that breeders check before EVERY breeding is that it is possible for some of these diseases to be picked up from the environment if there is an infected dog in the area. So just because they were healthy at the last heat doesn't mean that they are still free of STDs.

 

[wyoDreamer]

If you are going to sell the pups as purebred working dogs, you really need to make sure that only the desired male has access to the female while she is in heat. You may not see another dog actually breed your female, but it can and will happen. The urge to breed is very strong and when there is a girl dog in heat, trust me, the males will usually find a way. If you can't isolate the female while she is in heat, then you really need to sell the pups as working dogs, and state that you have a purebred on premises, but that the female is a working dog and you cannot guarantee parentage.

Boy would I be angry if I found out that the purebred dog I bought was actually a mutt. It wouldn't take long for the word to get around if someone found out that there was a chance that your purebred dogs aren't. Reputation is a big part of small business, especially something as specialized as what you are trying to do. Alot of your sales will depend on word of mouth and you don't want to get the reputation of "buyer beware".

I understand what you are trying to do, and I hope it works out for you. There is a market niche that you want to fill and I hope that you can make it work. It sounds like an interesting proposition. I just wonder how big is that market?
But, there is a reason that purebred dogs cost so much. There is alot of care and work in ensuring that the pups are healthy and meet the breed standards.