dog breeding questions

[ninny]

Okay some of you are getting what im saying some not. Im am not getting another dog or looking for one. I am wanting to talk about dog genetics. Not about finding a dog or breeder. Thank you for those who are getting it.

 

[Annie84]

but that's just it, genetics are kinda funny that way. You can breed two dogs and think you know what you're going to get, and not get it. You have to look at all the traits in both dogs being bred, look at their pedigrees, know good and bad traits of the dogs on their peds. You are not just going to breed a calm dog with a neurotic one and expect all the offspring to be in the middle. Genetics don't work that way. There is way more too it, and so much more that can even be discussed here, as there is just so much. One could discuss genetics for days, and still have barely tipped the surface. You can breed two dogs the same color together, and not get a single pup that color in the entire litter. It can and has happened. Now, if you were to breed a mild lab to a hyper lab, for instance, yeah, you may end up with one that is moderate, it all depends on genetics farther back than just the two parents, and which genes are dominate and recessive.

ETA: I know a person, one of my friends that also shows. She bred two Grand Champions together, one was even a Grand Champion in multiple registries. Both dogs tested great for their health tests, and both have solid temperaments. The litter produced 8 pups. In a 3 Generation Pedigree, there were 10 titled dogs (out of 14 dogs in 3 gens). They thought they were going to get the best of both worlds. Every dog has faults, no dog is 100% perfect. In this litter of 8 pups, 1 has become a show champion, 3 are still alive today, the other 5 have been euthanized due to health and temperament. Somehow this whole litter, just about ended up with the worst of the genes the parents had. Like I said before, even an experienced breeder who's been into a breed for 40 years, can't always predict what they are going to get in a litter. This litter I used as an example was produced by a breeder that has produced more Ch and GRCH dogs than anyone else I know. This breeder has produced many top 10 dogs in the registry we show in, and is very respected. They do a lot of research and planning before even announcing a potential litter.

Genetics are funny like that. Even in well bred dogs, some funny stuff can hide, you can never predict 100% what you're going to get.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

I posted what I thought was one answer to your question about how genetics affect drive. What else are you wanting to know about?

 

[carolinagirl58]

Quote:
Actually there are many breeders who do take their show dogs hunting. Many working dogs are also show dogs. The sire of my Anatolian Shepherd is a Grand Champion, and when he goes back home from the show, he goes back to protecting his livestock. Careful breeders who are concerned about preserving the original function of the breed are diligent about producing puppies that will not only conform to breed standard but can do the work it was bred to do. You CAN have it both way, but it's much harder to do. You probably could not start over an ground zero and develop your own line of working/show dogs though by crossing lines together that are strictly working or strictly show. The conformation faults that exist in many working (or hunting) dogs probably could not be bred back out in order to make the dog suitable for show.

A good example of this is the Great Pyrenees dog. These dogs were bred to protect livestock in cold climates. They are supposed to have a very heavy coat. But since this breed is used in hot areas of this country for livestock guardians, people are producing dogs with much lighter coats. The heavy coat is being bred out of them. You couldn't take one of these light coated dogs and cross it with a heavy coated show dog and get show quality pups. You'd get pups all over the map as far as coats go. Again...blended genetics don't work.

 

[ninny]

Thank you my questions are being answered now. With dog breed standards i am of the opinion that the dog should have to prove it can work before its shown. I know thats not going to happen since most show people won't want to do it. I trying to get a feel for how different genes affect how a dog can be trained. I'm on the training end and the differences in dogs of the same breed amaze me. Jamie explained drive for me well. So thanks Jaime. And i get that its much harder to create a line then i thought now. Im assuming that its easier to bred something out then in? Like the GP coat. Or am i backwards? What about weather toleration? The school that is going to evaluate my lab for sar and/or drug work will not work a dog if its over ninety degrees out. But the military working dogs in the middle east work in much hotter temps then that. Huskies can work when it's much colder. I can see how it would be easier to work in the cold but what about heat? I know im full of questions but i trying to stuff my brain with all things dog.

 

[Okie Amazon]

Quote:
Hooboy! I have working line German Shepherds and they are a whole different critter from show lines, even more strikingly so than in some other breeds.


Show line GSD

This IMHO, is a deformed dog, useless for all but growing hair.


Working line:

I know in Labs, they started going in for the short legged squatty body a few years ago in the show ring. Genetics are everything in temperament and working ability and it IS possible to have the best of both worlds if you find breeders that BREED for it. We breed structurally sound working line dogs that have an off switch. Our dogs can track, do stunning obedience and get with the bitework like demons, but can also come in and lie down at your feet and chill. You just have to find that breeder that breeds dogs with the traits you want. We have an East German male that is over the top in drive, but bred with daughters of our Czech male, that have inherited his clear head and off switch, he produces puppies that are drivey, but easily trained and have the ability to relax and chill out. We would never in a million years put him on our Czech import female unless we were planning on selling a whole litter for police service dogs. Ivo/Ozeta puppies would be work 'em, kennel 'em dogs - no WAY they could live with a family!

 

[Matthew3590]

Quote:
Hooboy! I have working line German Shepherds and they are a whole different critter from show lines, even more strikingly so than in some other breeds.


Show line GSD

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/OkieAmazon/American20Showline1.jpg

This IMHO, is a deformed dog, useless for all but growing hair.


Working line:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/OkieAmazon/EastGermanShepherd1.jpg



I know in Labs, they started going in for the short legged squatty body a few years ago in the show ring. Genetics are everything in temperament and working ability and it IS possible to have the best of both worlds if you find breeders that BREED for it. We breed structurally sound working line dogs that have an off switch. Our dogs can track, do stunning obedience and get with the bitework like demons, but can also come in and lie down at your feet and chill. You just have to find that breeder that breeds dogs with the traits you want. We have an East German male that is over the top in drive, but bred with daughters of our Czech male, that have inherited his clear head and off switch, he produces puppies that are drivey, but easily trained and have the ability to relax and chill out. We would never in a million years put him on our Czech import female unless we were planning on selling a whole litter for police service dogs. Ivo/Ozeta puppies would be work 'em, kennel 'em dogs - no WAY they could live with a family!

Do working lines have the same color as the show line breeds?

 

[ninny]

Quote:
Hooboy! I have working line German Shepherds and they are a whole different critter from show lines, even more strikingly so than in some other breeds.


Show line GSD

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/OkieAmazon/American20Showline1.jpg

This IMHO, is a deformed dog, useless for all but growing hair.


Working line:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/OkieAmazon/EastGermanShepherd1.jpg



I know in Labs, they started going in for the short legged squatty body a few years ago in the show ring. Genetics are everything in temperament and working ability and it IS possible to have the best of both worlds if you find breeders that BREED for it. We breed structurally sound working line dogs that have an off switch. Our dogs can track, do stunning obedience and get with the bitework like demons, but can also come in and lie down at your feet and chill. You just have to find that breeder that breeds dogs with the traits you want. We have an East German male that is over the top in drive, but bred with daughters of our Czech male, that have inherited his clear head and off switch, he produces puppies that are drivey, but easily trained and have the ability to relax and chill out. We would never in a million years put him on our Czech import female unless we were planning on selling a whole litter for police service dogs. Ivo/Ozeta puppies would be work 'em, kennel 'em dogs - no WAY they could live with a family!

I agree with you on the whole useless thing. I feel that way about show labs. I glad to hear of a breeder that doesn't feel all their puppies would be wonderful pets. Im with a service dog group and we were given a lab pup from hunting lines who is a royal pain. Still not sure what we are going to do with him. He's trained for the right person. Just need them to show up.

 

[FourPawz]

Quote:
Hooboy! I have working line German Shepherds and they are a whole different critter from show lines, even more strikingly so than in some other breeds.


Show line GSD

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/OkieAmazon/American20Showline1.jpg

This IMHO, is a deformed dog, useless for all but growing hair.

That's comparing an American show line to a German working line. How about comparing a German showline to the working dog. MUCH more appropriate comparison.

Click on this link:

http://www.traumhofgsd.com/images/sherry.jpg
And this dog is not only a superior German example of the breed, he also does what a German SHEPHERD was born to do, work sheep.


Working line:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e257/OkieAmazon/EastGermanShepherd1.jpg

I know in Labs, they started going in for the short legged squatty body a few years ago in the show ring. Genetics are everything in temperament and working ability and it IS possible to have the best of both worlds if you find breeders that BREED for it. We breed structurally sound working line dogs that have an off switch. Our dogs can track, do stunning obedience and get with the bitework like demons, but can also come in and lie down at your feet and chill. You just have to find that breeder that breeds dogs with the traits you want. We have an East German male that is over the top in drive, but bred with daughters of our Czech male, that have inherited his clear head and off switch, he produces puppies that are drivey, but easily trained and have the ability to relax and chill out. We would never in a million years put him on our Czech import female unless we were planning on selling a whole litter for police service dogs. Ivo/Ozeta puppies would be work 'em, kennel 'em dogs - no WAY they could live with a family!
​

 

[ninny]

Matthew3590 it depends on the breed and what the registering body says. With labs all three colors are the same. GSD the akc does not allow white dogs. You need to be careful buying some times. There is a scam going on with labs. Some people are breeding silver and other colors and registering with the akc. These colors do not exist in the lab breed. They are crossing labs with other breeds then passing off the pups as pure. They are registering them as chocolate usually. The mom is a pure lab and then they use the papers of a pure male to do this. G oogle silver labs they show up everywhere. Some breeds like with dobermans you want to stay away from white ones for one reason or that may have been more then info they you want. oh well