Dutch Bantams Breed Thread

[BDutch]

Hi all, I am very pleased with all recent posts. Especially the ones of JeanR. Nice to have an active breeder whits lots of Experience here.

Here a photo of my Dutch last year. The pyle chicks in the middle (hen and rooster) are about 2 months old here. The one with more brown and bigger comb turned out to be a beautifull rooster. The patrijs/light brown and parelgrijs/lavender young hens are 3 1/2 months old here.

I am not a breeder, but like to have this small breed as BYC. The offspring is now 3 months and a week old. The colors got mixed. But they still are dutch bantams in my opinion as long as the features are right: the wings hang down, they are about 450-500 gr, the leggs are small and blue, the earlobes are white and the comb is single.

Hope to make and post a few pictures today of the offspring today.

 

[BDutch]

Picture of one of my black/darkbrown hens , now 14 weeks old. The father is pyle and the mother is lavender. Her sister looks exactly the same.
Just hatched she, her sister and her brother were all black. Her brother got coloured feathers in his neck around 6 weeks old. Second picture , same age and same parents. Now it look as if he is becoming a darker brown partridge.

Is this a recognized colour? Perhaps black copper or black gold?

The next photo shows all my cockerels. The one in front is the black male chick/cockerel., The two behind had a clear light brown partridge look (see my Avatar) The bigger one in the back grew very fast and starts to crow now. The smaller one , left, had a cold for several weeks and grew slowly. He still has some baby colour feathers.

And here's the final picture of my young pyle (witpatrijs) hen. Same age, same father. The mother is probably pyle too. But according to the chicken calculator the mother can be light brown too. I didn't keep my hens seperated and the eggs of the pyle and the light brown have the same size and shape.

 

[JeanR]

No, not recognized varieties--parents may be an accepted variety, but the wrong crosses are just beautiful Dutch "mutts". There are rules to produce Dutch Bantams, in predictable varieties. Creating new ones, that will breed true, takes YEARS, and then there will still be appearances of long forgotten crosses, that make the "new colors" soon disappear. Genetics of Colour is a study that all folks that want to raise birds of a BREED should seek. Once a color gene is introduced, it is there FOREVER, even though it may be a recessive and not display regularly! However, for lovely Backyard Banties", mixes can be fun, and right now, I have several that were wrong crosses, made on purpose, NO ONE will have them. Yes, they are Dutch, but have no use for breeding DUTCH! With severe winters, it has become difficult for me to care for my DUTCH when the ice is solid on the pathways to the Poultry houses! Most, but not all, of my special DUTCH breeding birds will be sold before winter. Since it is not possible to ship "lives" from my area any longer, I simply cannot hatch those beautiful eggs, all dated and labeled with the band numbers of the parent birds! Gentleman is driving across the country this fall to pick up 3 trios of Mille Fleur and Cream Mille Fleur youngsters that I am enjoying raising. Probably won't cost him much more than Shipping, if it were possible?? I will get to meet with him. He will see the parent birds ( am keeping 2 pens of MF/CMF and 1 pen of Buff Columbians). I have several inquiries a week for DUTCH, but must say, sorry, unless you can come for them, I simply cannot hatch many, at all! If the right home came for those 3 pens of much loved favorites, I will have my cross-color bred pullets for EGGS, that I would not want to be without. (I just cannot enjoy eating STORE EGGS, and they are too large!), When you get old,you must think ahead! These cross- color birds can be given or sold as "beautiful backyard banties, not as Dutch, even though they are not crossed with another Bantam Breed. Most of the inquiries about Dutch, on this Chicken site,are from folks who did no homework before obtaining what they are "told" are DUTCH, but may not be Dutch at all. RECORDS are necessary to "tell" if your birds are DUTCH. White ear lobes and blue legs do not make a DUTCH==there is LOTS more! One must KNOW the parent birds, if you want to raise DUTCH.
So there you are, you are mixing and I would never sell you one of my birds, if I knew they would be crossed improperly, as I have spent too many years sorting out the best display of DUTCH features and correct color (variety). Sorry for the seeming "scold", but while your birds are Dutch, they have not been bred to predictable color and cannot be useful for the "real deal"--not useful for the DUTCH BREED, no matter how lovely they are!. Not to worry, you will enjoy your Dutch, but do not forget the breeders of the past 50 years, who made the BREED so desirable to you and mix up their years of work to make them breed true and recognized as such! You can make up color names, from what you see, but there are only certain colors(varieties) that can be bred-true to color or by Genetic crosses that ARE predictable! Carry on--and ENJOY your Dutch. (Members of the Hollandse Krielenfokkers Club would help you!)

 

[JeanR]

I am sure the breeder did not "lie" to you, but perhaps obtained his birds (from breeder in England/Wales/Scotland) and they were not properly labeled for him. Variety names are easily misunderstood, especially,if Dutch is a new breed to him. If from a Sales Site, "anything goes". If from a recognized Breeder, no one wants their reputation questioned, by a wrong, not predictable, variety from a sale. Perhaps you will find a Poultry book with pictures of breeds, Large Fowl and Bantams, and it will have pictures of the Columbian variety, that is recognized in many breeds, such as the Belgian Bearded d'Anvers, Light Brahmas, Cochin, Cornish, Old English, Wyandottes--others--all the same Columbian color/pattern description. Likewise, there will be pictures like your pullet (cockerel is not shown as a pattern well defined in his picture) as , Barred,or Mottled. In the US Standards description, Barred has variations, such as in Dutch Bantams,it is called Cuckoo, and variation, as in Crele. I am certain that the seller of your birds, has no intention of misrepresenting the color/variety, but is confused or has not researched the Dutch variety descriptions--or birds were mislabeled when he obtained his breeding birds. He has listed a lot of varieties--(and so many other fowl!)--sounds like a Hatchery! Could you properly pen, and keep breeding records of the chicks hatched, with 10 varieties of just one breed. Almost impossible to keep them separated or sorted properly for breeding the varieties. Or does he just purchase and import, eggs. Then it is just a guess whether the chicks will be as the eggs are labeled. Almost impossible, also, to identify some varieties by down color, at hatch And he lists most varieties ,that are few in numbers--anyplace (such as the Columbian, Blue, Crele, Mille Fleur, Lemon Mille Fleur, (in Holland, these 2 varieties are called Porselein and Citroen Porselein), Lavender, Black, White). And he misnames the varieties that are best known in Dutch worldwide: Gold Partridge, Yellow Gold Partridge, Silver Partridge. The Columbian, in Dutch, is a very newly recognized variety in Britain and also, in Holland, developed over quite a time, in England, by the former Secretary of the Dutch Bantam Club, UK, not at all easy to locate in Britain..

I kid you NOT, your Dutch are NOT Columbian variety. They are a Barred variety--Cuckoo. And genetically, the Cuckoo CAN NOT have blue legs--and even the crosses of Cuckoo with other varieties, also are very difficult to breed with Blue legs! This includes my Mille Fleur and Cream Mille Fleur. (Citroen MF) Dutch--after created in Holland in 1990, still getting light legs in many offspring..This should be a major clue that your birds are of a Barred variety, and NOT Columbians.

Be optimistic that your birds are DUTCH and that the variety can be properly named, so that you will have a good and pleasurable breeding project!
(looking for Cuckoo Dutch pictures--may take a while). Personally, I would not purchase birds from a person who could not not show better knowledge of the birds he is selling. With the Dutch just getting a good start in Ireland, keeping them predictable and with good records of breeding pens, will ensure their good demand==Dutch are such lovely little bantams!

Best wishes and Good luck

Although my heritage is partly Irish, sadly, and I have tramped all over Britain from N to S, I have been unable to visit that beautiful land!!

 

[BDutch]

@jeanR,
Sorry to hear that it getting too complicated to breed Dutch as you used to.

For now I am happy with my Dutch in mixed color. I did not buy them from an official breeder. In the Netherlands there probably are more BYC lovers that have Dutch for fun.

But I do have a remark on your information. Not all the colors are always predictable and sometimes you have to cross colors for special outcomes.

For instance if the male and female are both pyle, there is a great chance that you get pyle and light brown chicks.
I looked at the chicken calculator to get this information. Mainly because I was curious about the outcome.

The outcome of the lavender hen with the pyle rooster predicted that I would only get black and white chicks. And this calculator was right only the colors are not pure of course. erhaps the recognized colours are not the same in the USA as in The Netherlands?
My chicks of this color mix were all back and white. From the same parents there was a beautifull white splash chick too. But unfortunately this disapeared overnight. Probably taken by a rat.

With blue breed the colours are even harder to predict and you have a breed a whole family to get a few blues.

I have some of this info from chicken calculator or kippenjungle
Thats where I encountered the black variétés black copper and black gold. But I understand that hese colors are not recognized as Dutch colours.

 

[Muscoveyman]

The breeders place is massive he has everything from storks to swans and chickens of every variety! Thanks for your help I'm dying to know what specific breed or cross they are, he does have a lot of experience though he's been breeding for quite a while judging by his collection of birds! Anyway I'll get on the phone to him and see if he can tell me I looked up crele x cuckoo Dutch bantam and came across this photo which is exactly like my rooster although the brown on the lower back is fainter

 

[BDutch]

@Muscovry,

About the coockoo (koekoekpatrijs)

Did you check this site too?

Http://www.kippenencyclopedie.nl/php/index.php?title=

 

[Muscoveyman]

@Muscovry,

About the coockoo (koekoekpatrijs)

Did you check this site too?

Http://www.kippenencyclopedie.nl/php/index.php?title=

Thank you my cockerel looks like the cuckoo on this site just with a crele colour on his back with long feathers so I presume he is a crele x cuckoo Dutch bantam? Both legs on the hen and rooster are a light shade of blue though but from what jeanR says they don't carry this colour on there legs but anyway I don't really mind as long as the hen goes broody and hatches her own chicks then I'll be happy!

 

[JeanR]

Found a new picture of a lovely Crele pullet owned by Cennydd Jones, UK. Note her light colored legs. She is a lovely type Dutch pullet, and Cennydd is one of only several Crele breeders in UK. Her body feathers look rather mottled than cuckoo, but cuckoo is the variety that made the Creles in Dutch. The birds in Ireland must have come from UK??

So glad that you are happy with your birds. They are lovely. And yes, the Crele color just does not show well in the pictures. So hope your pullet is also Crele. Even, is she is Cuckoo, you will have pretty chicks--but do not be surprised at the different recessive genes that express from Crele or Cuckoo--maybe a Gold Patridge in a generation later? No matter, if you like them. It is not easy to explain on a website--but there are web sources that can add to ones information about a breed/variety--and how to produce them! It is a PLEASURE to raise bantams!!

My Buff Columbian Dutch were sorted out from my Lemon Mille Fleurs (Geneticist in Australia told me how) as the Mille Fleurs had several original DUTCH varieties in their development: Buff Columbian, Wheaten, Cuckoo and Partridge, to make them DUTCH in type. Then the Mille Fleur pattern was added (from German Rosecombs in MF and Lemon MF and a cross to Belgian d'Anvers in MF) which added the pattern that has become dominant. However, all those genes are all still there in the birds--and by selecting the best of each hatch--not using the less correct ones--we seldom see the recessives BUT THEY ARE THERE, and can still display, if birds carrying them get together!! Geneticists said I could make Cuckoo, also, but the Buff Columbians were the priority--and they have been a great success, since none were ever imported from Holland--except as hidden in the Mille Fleurs!! It would take some years to sort out the Cuckoo variety--and LOTS of useless offspring--to feed and watch mature--to find homes for. The Buff Columbians (and later Blue Buff Columbians) were enough fun!

You will enjoy seeing your chicks and hope you will learn about other Dutch varieties that are a challengs and a pleasure!

 

[carikermoon]

JeanR, it broke my heart to read that you were downsizing your flock. We have a small backyard flock of hatchery birds (for their eggs and as pets) but after seeing some magnificent show birds, my oldest decided that he wanted to raise and show quality chickens. I pointed him to the Internet to research bantam breeds, and he has his heart set on showing BCLB Dutch Bantams. I think he delights in their rarity and complicated color genetics. We've really enjoyed reading your posts on maintaining the Dutch varieties as we've prepared our backyard for housing show quality poultry. Please note that NONE of our pet quality hens lay a white egg...so it will be easy to differentiate eggs for eating versus eggs for hatching! There will be no cross-breeds here.

We will be joining the society as a family this next week--do you have any tips for a young budding breeder?