Endangered breeds

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patandchickens, I really appreciate your comments. One thing I've been seeing here on this forum -- and in no way am I criticizing anyone -- but a lot of people say they are *breeding* this or that, but you look at their signature line and they have a dozen different breeds, and only one or two or three of most of them! That's fine, but in order to preserve a breed, we have to make more of a commitment to it, both in numbers and in willingness to cull birds that aren't up to snuff. I plan to have at least three breeding pens of Salmon Faverolles by next year, and they'll be the best stock I can get. Surplus birds will go in the freezer (one reason why I wanted a dual-purpose breed!). I'll keep my little Silkie-crosses for broodies (and at least one of them has just started laying!) until I'm sure the Faverolles will be able to raise their own replacements (I don't want to mess with an incubator), then ALL I'll have will be the Faverolles. I'm making that commitment to one breed to not only preserve them, but hopefully to improve, or at least maintain status quo!

Kathleen

 

[CARS]

Pat and Kathleen,

Do you have a plan for a "minimum" # of birds to keep a sustainable flock? Or is it possible that with even a dozen birds, lets say 3 roos and 9 hens, that you may end up with offspring that is no good to pass on??

I'm going to start my breeding program with Buckeyes. There are so many people into them and so many great strains available that if I run into issues, help is available. Then, after a few years of learning I might dive into some real rare birds. I'd hate to hurt a breed more than they are hurting!

 

[CTChickenMom]

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This is an admirable goal. However, many people, like those who live in cities, don't have room to hatch chickens on a large scale. One needs to have multiple family lines for good breeding and for that you have to have lots of space. Hatcheries have their place.

Ideally, getting chicks/adults from breeders is great but it isn't aways possible. I'll be getting Nankins from a breeder this spring but he's the only one for Nankins within a days driving distance from me. Shipping isn't easy on the birds so I don't buy adults and I'm not set up to incubate. I would like to breed the Nankins which are critically endangered, and possibly another larger breed like Faverolles or Chanteclers. I believe Faverolles are non-sitters so my Nankins will have to hatch those eggs. They used to be kept for that purpose, to hatch eggs of the non-sitters.

 

[greenpatch]

Are Rose Comb RIR Bantams on the list? That is what I`ve been looking for. Chris

 

[CTChickenMom]

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No, there are no bantams on the list unless they are true bantams, like Nankins. Standard RIR, non-industrial, are on the 'recovering' list.

 

[patandchickens]

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Yes, that is a very good question and it has been discussed profitably on other threads here, and I will be DARNED if I can figure out what search terms to use to turn 'em up, or to reconstruct (via google) the information that was cited, even the stuff I myself remember posting

My best recollection, though, is that recommendations were cited, both from actual (very experienced) chicken breeders and from academic types, that you probably ought to have at least 20-50 hens and 3-8 cocks, managed in some sort of intelligent nonrandom system. Also I have seen it suggested numerous times by (very experienced) chicken breeders that you should probably at most be keeping 10% of your chicks as further breeders. (Of course, the more chicks you produce the more selective you can be). If you are keeping no more than 10% at the most, that gives you a clue about how many you need to be hatching...

(Note that all three of these things -- how many breeders you have, how many chicks you produce, and how stringently you cull the chicks -- are independantly important. The first and third relate mainly to the 'health' of your gene pool, the second relates mainly to your ability to make progress selecting for or against particular traits).

Aha, wait, I have found one bit of it: https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=255023&p=2 post #33 -- "According to R. D. Crawford, poultry scientist at the University of Saskatchewan, the ideal number to minimize genetic losses and thereby indefinitely sustain a flock is 25 hens (to 50) and 20 (or more) cocks"

Those interested in properly, sustainably, effectively working with rare breeds and small population sizes should check with various rare-breed organizations such as ALBS, SPPA, RBC, etc etc etc because many of them offer useful pages, pamphlets or books on managing the gene pool of small flocks/herds.

Or is it possible that with even a dozen birds, lets say 3 roos and 9 hens, that you may end up with offspring that is no good to pass on??

Well of course it depends what you start with

But assuming the initial material is of reasonable quality and reasonably-stable breeding, I don't see any problem starting that way -- as long as you are producing large numbers of chicks each year, culling strictly down to only the best, and ideally carrying over a few more breeders than that for future years.

FWIW I can tell you that, starting with like 8 (culled down from 12) sussexes that were basically what I'm personally looking for but not of any 'special' lineage, the unfortunately-very-few chicks I managed to produce last year were ALL a considerable improvement over the parent generation; and my big project for this year is to A Whole Big Lot Of Chicks so I can do more-serious culling, in addition to adding a few from the same original bloodlines to broaden the male-side genetic base. I am not aiming for show birds, I want them to basically fit the breed description but mainly be good meat producers and respectably-adequate layers. But the same principle applies if you are breeding for fancy points.

Pat​

 

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Good information, Pat -- I'm shooting for enough pen space to go up to fifty hens, but it may take me a year or two to get there.

My information on the Faverolles is that they will go broody at least some, not enough to make a serious dent in the egg production, which is a good thing, but hopefully enough to reproduce themselves. I may have to get an incubator, though, in order to hatch out enough to do a good job of selecting and culling.

I think that people with only a few birds could possibly find others in their area and start a cooperative breeding group -- if you can find enough people who are all interested in the same breed. That way, even if you could only keep one rooster and a few hens, you could make a contribution to saving a breed.

Kathleen

 

[patandchickens]

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That's more ambitious (but better

) than me -- I don't see me overwintering more than maybe 20 ever (right now I have 10). But I do think I can probably grow out 50 or so to choose from, particularly if I do it in several batches.

My information on the Faverolles is that they will go broody at least some, not enough to make a serious dent in the egg production, which is a good thing, but hopefully enough to reproduce themselves. I may have to get an incubator, though, in order to hatch out enough to do a good job of selecting and culling.

Ha, that sounds exactly like me

I am leaving last year's one broody in the gene pool even though she is undistinguished in some other respects, but I have also built an incubator and need to get better at using it

I think that people with only a few birds could possibly find others in their area and start a cooperative breeding group -- if you can find enough people who are all interested in the same breed. That way, even if you could only keep one rooster and a few hens, you could make a contribution to saving a breed.

That is a really good idea, you know. I like it! If it were done in a semi-coordinated way -- starting with stock that's all from the same good lines, or at least from known-compatible lines, and with group input on culling, I could see that being really feasible. As long as people had the room to grow out at least a dozen or two chicks per household -- that might be difficult for some.

Pat​

 

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That's more ambitious (but better

) than me -- I don't see me overwintering more than maybe 20 ever (right now I have 10). But I do think I can probably grow out 50 or so to choose from, particularly if I do it in several batches.
Pat

Pat, I have twenty-eight this winter (plus now the five Fav chicks, so 33 total); fifty wouldn't be all that many more!

Kathleen

 

[gvntofly05]

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I whole heartedly agree wit you.

I have my EE's for my eating eggs and even though they are not a heritage breed I have chosen BC Marans as the breed I want to help improve. I plan to breed aggressively and cull heavily for standard and egg color. My only hope is that in some small way I may be a help to get BC's accepted by the APA. They are a beautiful breed but they need lots of help. I'm hoping that by this time next year I will have my base flock of at least 27 hens and 3 roos. Then the fun really begins!