enrichment/enclosure for indoor setup (plants,toys, etc)

[Appalachickens]

They could’ve also been talking about parakeets, which are also very social animals who naturally live in a flock. It’s interesting how it’s socially acceptable to keep parrots (and finches, canaries, etc.) alone, but not chickens or ducks.

Just devil's advocate here - there are plenty of people who don't think it's a good idea to keep any bird indoors, including things like parrots. My feeling is that creatures with wings need to be able to fly. In fact, it's questionable whether any exotic pet is truly ethical. I used to have a snake (a ball python) who had a sizable tank, but upon reflection I don't think it was a kindness to keep him. I sure wouldn't now because I feel snakes belong outdoors. I'm not saying keeping a parakeet or the like makes you evil, but again it falls under the category of "you can, but should you?"

 

[fat brown hen]

Just devil's advocate here - there are plenty of people who don't think it's a good idea to keep any bird indoors, including things like parrots. My feeling is that creatures with wings need to be able to fly. In fact, it's questionable whether any exotic pet is truly ethical.

Pretty much any animal in a modern setting is going to live a suboptimal life. Including chickens, who should be foraging in the jungle rather than fenced in a run. Including humans, who spend their days sitting at a desk under fluorescent lights.

Sometimes we can't give our pets what's "best", so we do what we can with the resources we have.

 

[Appalachickens]

Of course, and I don’t disagree with you about that. I’m actually hoping to move toward having chickens that can live wild in the woods. And yet, I still see a qualitative difference between a chicken scratching around in the dirt outside for bugs and one inside in a cage or on the kitchen floor.

 

[fat brown hen]

Of course, and I don’t disagree with you about that. I’m actually hoping to move toward having chickens that can live wild in the woods. And yet, I still see a qualitative difference between a chicken scratching around in the dirt outside for bugs and one inside in a cage or on the kitchen floor.

I mean, you don't have to have chickens that can live wild in the woods to be ethical. Just my opinion, and we'll agree to disagree-- If the chicken brings you joy and you're doing the best you can with what you've got, it's fine. A chicken that lives in a cage on the kitchen floor is still living a better life than 99% of the chickens on the planet.

 

[TOMTE]

Including chickens, who should be foraging in the jungle rather than fenced in a run.

Our domesticated chickens' wild ancestors, Gallus gallus, should be foraging in the jungle, that's where they belong. With the exception of landrace/gamefowl which are nearly wild, our domesticated chickens, Gallus gallus domesticus, have been bred for thousands of years to be comfortable in a domesticated setting and even more recently, within the past couple hundred years when actual breeds started being established, to be perfectly happy in a coop/run setup as long as there's enough space and natural chicken things to do. (Most) domesticated chickens shouldn't be foraging in the jungle because a lot of their wild survival instinct has been bred out of them, they've been bred to be heavier and slower and more conspicuous, less alert for predators, and they're no longer physically fit for that kind of life.

Including humans, who spend their days sitting at a desk under fluorescent lights.

Yes, but we make that choice for ourselves. Livestock have to live with the conditions we provide for them.

 

[fat brown hen]

Our domesticated chickens' wild ancestors, Gallus gallus, should be foraging in the jungle, that's where they belong. With the exception of landrace/gamefowl which are nearly wild, our domesticated chickens, Gallus gallus domesticus, have been bred for thousands of years to be comfortable in a domesticated setting and even more recently, within the past couple hundred years when actual breeds started being established, to be perfectly happy in a coop/run setup as long as there's enough space and natural chicken things to do. (Most) domesticated chickens shouldn't be foraging in the jungle because a lot of their wild survival instinct has been bred out of them, they've been bred to be heavier and slower and more conspicuous, less alert for predators, and they're no longer physically fit for that kind of life.

Yes, but we make that choice for ourselves.

I have a boring desk job, but I would much rather be a self-sufficient farmer. BUT I'm not physically fit for that kind of life, and would never make enough to survive, so the best I can do is have some backyardchickens and LARP as a farmer in my free time.

Similarly, I believe most chicken breeds would prefer the jungle environment of their ancestors, even if they are no longer physically fit for that kind of life. So the best we can do is try to make them *feel* like they have that kind of environment. With, say, a spacious run, places to roost, maybe some plants and insects.

Is it possible to approximate a jungle-type environment, even with severe limitations? With, say, houseplants, a sandbox, other enrichment activities? I think it's worth trying. My own chickens free-range in the woods, but I try to be open-minded about other ways of doing things.

 

[TOMTE]

I have a boring desk job, but I would much rather be a self-sufficient farmer. BUT I'm not physically fit for that kind of life, and would never make enough to survive, so the best I can do is have some backyardchickens and LARP as a farmer in my free time.

Similarly, I believe most chicken breeds would prefer the jungle environment of their ancestors, even if they are no longer physically fit for that kind of life. So the best we can do is try to make them *feel* like they have that kind of environment. With, say, a spacious run, places to roost, maybe some plants and insects.

Is it possible to approximate a jungle-type environment, even with severe limitations? With, say, houseplants, a sandbox, other enrichment activities? I think it's worth trying. My own chickens free-range in the woods, but I try to be open-minded about other ways of doing things.

I'm open minded but I'm also not one to say nothing when I something that risks the health of an animal. This website is about education, not enabling. Hence why people in these types of threads who are against keeping chickens indoors come in to bring up the reality of all the work that it takes, and the risks involved. Then, if someone still decides to do it, at least they're (hopefully) prepared for the many ways it can go wrong and have a plan for what to do with the animal(s) if/when it doesn't work out.

Having animals is a responsibility. Dreaming is nice but it isn't realistic. An animal's wellbeing isn't something to be played around with for one's own entertainment. If you want a typically cuddly animal, get a cat or dog. If you want a cuddly bird, good luck, and chickens are definitely not it. So you saw a video on TikTok of a chicken who runs up to its people for snuggles, that chicken is probably one in ten thousand. That's just not how it really is and people are too quick to see something cute pertaining to an animal and decide they're going to have that too. And then what happens when it doesn't work out like they were expecting? Usually, the poor animal who had no say in the situation in the first place is neglected, abused, abandoned...

We all take care of our animals to the best of our ability. Sometimes things happen and we can only do the bare minimum, often sacrificing our own needs for theirs. However, if your intention is to put an animal into an environment where it absolutely does not belong in the first place, like a chicken confined to one room of the house, or a rat in a tiny hamster cage, or a betta fish in a little decorative vase, then I can confidently say that you don't have that animal's best interest at heart. Find an animal that better suits your needs/situation.

 

[Appalachickens]

I mean, you don't have to have chickens that can live wild in the woods to be ethical. Just my opinion, and we'll agree to disagree-- If the chicken brings you joy and you're doing the best you can with what you've got, it's fine. A chicken that lives in a cage on the kitchen floor is still living a better life than 99% of the chickens on the planet.

I absolutely didn't say you had to have chickens living wild in the woods to be ethical. I only said it was my hope to do that. As for the 99% of chickens having worse lives than those inside people's homes, I assume you are contrasting chickens kept by individuals with factory-farmed chickens? Sure, they have horrifying lives. But I don't believe that should be how low we set the bar for quality of life.

 

[Appalachickens]

We all take care of our animals to the best of our ability. Sometimes things happen and we can only do the bare minimum, often sacrificing our own needs for theirs. However, if your intention is to put an animal into an environment where it absolutely does not belong in the first place, like a chicken confined to one room of the house, or a rat in a tiny hamster cage, or a betta fish in a little decorative vase, then I can confidently say that you don't have that animal's best interest at heart. Find an animal that better suits your needs/situation.

Amen.

 

[Somewhere_In_The_Clouds]

They could’ve also been talking about parakeets, which are also very social animals who naturally live in a flock. It’s interesting how it’s socially acceptable to keep parrots (and finches, canaries, etc.) alone, but not chickens or ducks.

It's not socially acceptable, well it only is to certain people. I made a post about this on the other thread. I believe with my whole heart "parakeets" should NEVER been kept alone. I own 9 non breeding pet budgies right now and I'll never own one or suggest only one to anyone but THE most dedicated and educated owner.
I own a singular cockatoo and one day I would like to get him a flock mate if I can because living in the country where these birds roam wild by the HUNDREDS, i know how social they are. But owning two parrots to owning two chickens isn't even remotely comparable, financially alone. For now my bird socializes with the wild cockatoos because he has an outdoor aviary.
The issue with keeping a singular bird of any species is the commitment, that most do not fully understand. You're making yourself responsible for that birds emotional wellbeing nonstop. Regardless if you're sick, regardless if you wish to go away, to a social event, that bird becomes more important than your own wants and people need to realize that. They're not objects to be stuck in a cage and brought out only when you "feel like it".