F1-F2-C1 question

[nicalandia]

If your rhode bar did not fit the description then they are not wild type. It may be that they are what I call a default or pseudo-wild type. Is there any difference in your F1 offspring down color and the down color of the rhode bar? Excluding the wheaten down F1 chicks- I am not asking if your rhode bar looked like the wheaten down F1 chicks.

Tim

He is talking about his HRIR foundation birds not Rhodebars, his rhodebars are Wildtype..

 

[nicalandia]

LOL, I am so confused. I think I may do RB x F1 cross, a HRIR x F1 cross, a F1 x HRIR, and a F1 x F1 (then backcross the F2's) if I end up with enough females. I would think that one of these crosses should start producing better RB and males with head spots.

Penny

just follow what I have outlined in the past and you will have supperior birds faster... you would need to cull more but you will get there faster

 

[tadkerson]

So let me make sure I understand the differences in the two recommendations...
Marvin recommends breeding wild type looking F1 Females back to a HRIR to achieve BC1s.
Tim recommends breeding the wheaten looking F1 males back to a RB female. Why? Because when that does produce a few wild type chicks you will know for sure what you have.

Am I understanding this correctly?
If so... I may set up pens of each since I have enough birds to do that.
Course at this point my curiosity is leaked just enough that I'm thinking about setting up the breeding pens... Two as described above and a third with wild type looking F1s back to a RB. Lots of anal tracking but a fun fall project.
If I'm not understanding correctly please bear with me and be more specific.

My point is that if you back cross the F1 wheaten down chicks with the RB- in the back cross offspring the purebred BC1 wild type chicks ( these are what you want) will be easily distinguished from the BC1 wheaten chicks ( you do not want these).

The BC1 wild type chicks will have genes in them that the rhode bar have- they will be auto-sexing.

This is your plan the way I see it.

male rhodebar x female HRIR = F1 some wheaten down chicks and some wild type down chicks

male RB x wheaten down females ( pick out the best looking females) = BC1 some autosexing rhodebar and some wheaten down

now use the BC1 rhode bar x female HRIR = BC2 wheaten down chicks and wild type chicks

male BC1 rb x BC2 wheaten chicks = BC3 autosexing rhode bar and some wheaten down chicks

By now the rhode bar should be more like the HRIR

Tim

 

[tadkerson]

Tim, are you aware that the pure RB here in the US are autosexed via white or cream head spots on the males? And yes they breed true. Here are some I hatched at one point... Not all keepers but both sexes are in this pic. These are Pure RB, not F1 - just to make site there is no confusion.

You can do it that way if they show up- they do not always show up on wild type down and they also show up on females. The key to auto-sexing is having two barring genes in the male and one in the female. The females will have a darker down color than the males.

Tim

 

[tadkerson]

Okay so our RB are only pseudo wild type and our F1's are pseudo wild type so if we do a BC then some of the offspring will be true wild type and those would be the ones we keep?

Penny

I was giving advise based upon the results of another persons crosses. Can you post pictures of your results. Then I will tell you what I think.

The key to producing auto sexing breeds is to keep track of the barring gene in the crosses. You have to understand how sex linked genes segregate.

for example

male HRIR x rb = F1 males with one barring gene and females that do not have a barring gene

F1 male x F1 femlae = males and females that do not have any barring genes and males with one barring gene and females that have one barring gene

No barring gene = no autosexing

Tim

 

[melroseladi]

I was giving advise based upon the results of another persons crosses. Can you post pictures of your results. Then I will tell you what I think.

The key to producing auto sexing breeds is to keep track of the barring gene in the crosses. You have to understand how sex linked genes segregate.

for example

male HRIR x rb = F1 males with one barring gene and females that do not have a barring gene

F1 male x F1 femlae = males and females that do not have any barring genes and males with one barring gene and females that have one barring gene

No barring gene = no autosexing

Tim

Tim I am using a RB cock over HRIR hens, same line of HRIR as Redridge. My RB was not yellow at hatch and did have a head spot. Here are a couple of pics from my second batch of F1's





The pics below are from my first batch of F1's
The chick on the bottom right is a HRIR chick that is a few weeks older then my f1's. The 2 next to it hatched out lighter and are showing more of the barring. The chick at the top is one of the darker F1's and is does not show the whiteish barring like the lighter ones.


Top is F1 chick that hatched out with the dark chipmunk stripes. Below her is the HRIR chick.


Penny

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
nice.. I love the chicks.. Guys While Tim Advise is a really sound advise, my Advise would bring you quicker results while having to cull more... just keep an eye for the wiltype chick down in the F1 back cross to HRIR.. take the best Barred Female and cross it to a RB male this would produce about 100% Autosexing Chicks IF e+/ey B/B males show the same autosexing traits as the e+/e+ B/B males,

 

[melroseladi]

Quote:
What I have seen in my older F1 hatch is the darker striped and lighter stripes at hatch are feathering out differently and are still very easy to tell apart (dark stripes - light stripes) at this stage. They are also feathering out much faster then my HRIR chick.

Penny

 

[tadkerson]

Tim I am using a RB cock over HRIR hens, same line of HRIR as Redridge. My RB was not yellow at hatch and did have a head spot. Here are a couple of pics from my second batch of F1's





The pics below are from my first batch of F1's
The chick on the bottom right is a HRIR chick that is a few weeks older then my f1's. The 2 next to it hatched out lighter and are showing more of the barring. The chick at the top is one of the darker F1's and is does not show the whiteish barring like the lighter ones.


Top is F1 chick that hatched out with the dark chipmunk stripes. Below her is the HRIR chick.


Penny

Penny,

It appears that your heritage RIR are not carrying dominant wheaten. They are combination of brown and recessive wheaten or recessive wheaten. My advise would be for you to breed according to the hue of the down color.

All of your F1 chicks have varying shades of pseudo-wild type down color and they all carry one barring gene. I would suggest that you use for breeding the lightest colored chicks. I can not be positive if the difference in down color is expressed by an interaction of the birds other genes and the barring gene or if it is due to the heterozygous wild type/? E locus. Something is causing lighter down color.

I would suggest crossing the lightest down colored F1 females with a rhode bar male this produces BC1 offspring that carry the correct number of barring genes for auto-sexing. From this group pick out a BC1 male that has the lightest down color (with improved RIR type) that is easily distinguished from the darker down females.

BC1 male x Heritage RIR female = BC2 offspring all carry one barring gene - pick out the BC2 females that have the best RIR body type and the lightest down color

BC1 male x BC2 females = BCF1 every offspring has the correct number of barring genes (auto-sexing) and some should have good RIR body type

You are going to have to mark the chicks that have the lightest down color and what generation the birds are from. If you want birds that are easy to autosex, down color is very important and keeping track of the number of barring genes in a bird is one key to the down color.

To keep improving the birds cross the best RIR type and lightest down BCF1 male with the best RIR type BCF1 female= most of the birds should have good type and be auto-sexing.

That is my advise for you. It is very important that you keep track of the generations and birds. If you do not then it just becomes random matting.

Tim

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
Tim why would you advise using the lighter colored chicks? even the most darkest Rhodebar chicks can be Sexed at hatch, the Males double barring would always make it at least a shade lighter than the females and even the darkest females would have chipmunk stripping, here a pair of dark Rhodbar chicks..
Quote:
So Breeding for the Lightest colored ones will only provide you with Lighter colored adults, and thats the whole Breeding back to HRIR is all about, breeding in Red enhancers and Type..
Quote:
ALL of the F1s will have one copy of the Barring gene(Heterozygous for males and Hemizygous for females) and all of the chicks will be e+/ey(ok some maybe e+/eb) but what is most likely causing the difference shade of gold color on the chipmunk striped chicks is Heterozygosity of the Rhodebar lines lacking many of the Red enhancers found on foundation HRIR... so play it safe guys and use the Darkest Chipmunk stripped females(barred ones) back to Rhodebars or back to HRIR whatever your breeding plan is going to be