Fall Deworming - Ivermectin? Dewormer in the water supply?

[chickens really]

The environment and soil conditions dictate how often birds need to be wormed. If you live in the northern states or Canada, you may or may not have to worm your birds as often as folks elsewhere.
No one can convince me that nematodes do not exist in northern soils. They exist EVERYWHERE. If their feet touch the ground, they'll get worms.
Any area of the country that has had a prolonged rainy season can expect their birds to have worms. Also, birds kept on the same soil need to be wormed more often than birds that free range.
You worm dogs monthly, why? The same reason I worm my dog. Chickens peck the soil constantly. In doing so they pick up worm eggs and swallow them. They are easily more susceptible picking up worm eggs than dogs or cats.

For the non believers in worming, move down south with your birds and your birds will be infected with worms within one month and your birds will eventually die from starvation without worming. Chicknmania is correct; environmental/soil conditions.

You worm your dog monthly?

 

[casportpony]

@sunrise.superman, Are they molting? If molting that will affect what de-wormers you can use. Can you try to do a fecal? To do a fecal, get fresh poo from the thin ones, stick it in a ziplock baggie, stir well, and take to a vet to have the test done. If positive, that will tell you what types of worms they are. Once you know what type of worm you have, you can decide what wormer to use. If you want to de-worm without a fecal, that's okay too.

I have Ivermectin injectable on hand, but happy to get something else. I'm hoping for a dewormer I can put in their water as I have a few dingbats that are friendly enough to beg for treats but go absolutely bonkers when held...even when they should be comparatively catatonic. I don't have anyone to help hold them so I'd rather not have a chicken rodeo with aspirated dewormer if I can avoid it.

According to some studies, ivermectin is not an effective poultry de-wormer. If you want a truly water-soluble de-wormer, your choices are levamisole or Wormout gel, but I would not use either of these.

I have 15 hens, mixed breeds - only one bantam, would say at least 5 or 6 are thinner than I'd like despite eating well. And they're middle to upper level in pecking order so I doubt it's due to being chased off from the feed. They get fermented Scratch N Peck grower (still have 4 younguns), oyster shell, meal worms, fruit and veggie scraps as available, free range a large yard.

I would be concerned about these birds too.

Best dewormer I can put in water so everyone can dose themselves? Dosage/time frame? I realize I need to not use eggs while deworming with most dewormers.

If they are not molting I would use Valbazen or Safeguard orally, but if you don't want to do them orally, and if they will eat a mash, you could make a de-wormer mash instead. Let me know if you're interested in doing this and I will give you instructions.

---

The rest of you all make very good points, but here are my thoughts and I hope they make some sense...

A person has no way of knowing what worms they have or don't have in their flock unless they do routine fecal exams, and necropsy every bird that dies. Me, I've done fecals, all have been negative, yet I have necropsied a few and found large roundworms and cecal worms, so I know for sure that I have large roundworms and cecal worms.

So what do I do? Because peafowl and turkeys are susceptible to blackhead (histomoniasis), which they get from the cecal worm, my peafowl and turkeys get wormed more often than the chickens and ducks do. And because I have had several false negative fecals, I no longer do fecals. Maybe once I get my lab set up I will teach myself and start doing my own.

Some of you are saying don't de-worm unless you know they have worms and what those worms are, which I *would agree* with *if* they were all in perfect weight, but 1/3 of @sunrise.superman's flock is underweight, and to me that says something is not right. Is it worms? Who knows, but if I were in the OP's shoes and had 5 or 6 out of 15 that were thin, I would de-worm them, and I think many vets might suggest doing that too. I know my vets would.

This is what a vet wrote:
"Prophylactic Deworming
I have been saying this for years (because I have been seeing this for years!) and here it is: Many young and adult birds can be harboring ascarids (especially if they were parent-raised for any length of time) and you can run fecals all day, and guess what? The fecals will almost always be negative. A paper out of the Univ. of Georgia a few years back confirmed this. Many a time I have been a hero when I have dewormed a bird during a second or third opinion, when it passes a pile of ascarids and shocks the owner after being repeatedly told by other vets that "the fecal was negative." Well, deworm it anyway, with something safe. I routinely use pyrantel pamoate, since you can't hurt a bird with it, unless you aspirate it!"
Source:
http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/challenges.html

@sunrise.superman, if you can, get a food scale from Target or Walmart and get baseline weights on all 15 if possible. If you can't do all 15, do just the thin ones. While you have them caught, check them for lice and mites and give them a basic exam. Do you know how to make spreadsheets in Excel? If so, you might find it helpful to make a chart and track their weights. This is what I do with all of my peafowl and turkeys.

 

[dawg53]

You worm your dog monthly?

Yep, it's required down here if you see a vet, any vet. I forgot to add that it's also required to have all the usual vaccinations; rabies, distemper, kennel cough and so on.

 

[chickens really]

Yep, it's required down here if you see a vet, any vet.

Amazing......
Once a year here if that?

 

[Shadrach]

The environment and soil conditions dictate how often birds need to be wormed. If you live in the northern states or Canada, you may or may not have to worm your birds as often as folks elsewhere.
No one can convince me that nematodes do not exist in northern soils. They exist EVERYWHERE. If their feet touch the ground, they'll get worms.
Any area of the country that has had a prolonged rainy season can expect their birds to have worms. Also, birds kept on the same soil need to be wormed more often than birds that free range.
You worm dogs monthly, why? The same reason I worm my dog. Chickens peck the soil constantly. In doing so they pick up worm eggs and swallow them. They are easily more susceptible picking up worm eggs than dogs or cats.

For the non believers in worming, move down south with your birds and your birds will be infected with worms within one month and your birds will eventually die from starvation without worming. Chicknmania is correct; environmental/soil conditions.

I am down South, I'm in Spain.
I agree with all of your logic. Chickens will pick up worms, most chickens are probably carrying some worm load, one needs to be particularly watchful after a spell of damp conditions, I even agree with your disagreement with Chickenmania regarding whether free range, or contained are at higher risk.
The evidence here, when fecal floats are performed by my vet, is that in 90% of tests, the chickens don't have worms.
The guy who keeps the game fowl here has his tested for worms at a different vet. They rarely have worms.
The chickens here it seems would reach a ripe old age if predators didn't get them. To the best of my knowledge no chicken here has ever died of worms.
As you mention, worms are everywhere, even in Spain.
I have wormed chickens here. I did them all one particularly wet autumn some years ago.
I've had chickens either pooping worms or obviously sick and diagnosed with worms who I've treated so I know there are worms here.
There are lots of people here where I live who never worm their chickens. I don't know what they die of generally but plenty of keepers here have chickens ten years old and above.

The theory offered by the local keepers here regarding worms is the chickens eat in a days forage things that either kill worms or discourage their life inside the chicken.
I thought it was a bit far fetched but a couple of recent studies dug up by CCUK might go someway to validating the local chicken keepers claim.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5037735/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2314853517303918

 

[dawg53]

I am down South, I'm in Spain.
I agree with all of your logic. Chickens will pick up worms, most chickens are probably carrying some worm load, one needs to be particularly watchful after a spell of damp conditions, I even agree with your disagreement with Chickenmania regarding whether free range, or contained are at higher risk.
The evidence here, when fecal floats are performed by my vet, is that in 90% of tests, the chickens don't have worms.
The guy who keeps the game fowl here has his tested for worms at a different vet. They rarely have worms.
The chickens here it seems would reach a ripe old age if predators didn't get them. To the best of my knowledge no chicken here has ever died of worms.
As you mention, worms are everywhere, even in Spain.
I have wormed chickens here. I did them all one particularly wet autumn some years ago.
I've had chickens either pooping worms or obviously sick and diagnosed with worms who I've treated so I know there are worms here.
There are lots of people here where I live who never worm their chickens. I don't know what they die of generally but plenty of keepers here have chickens ten years old and above.

The theory offered by the local keepers here regarding worms is the chickens eat in a days forage things that either kill worms or discourage their life inside the chicken.
I thought it was a bit far fetched but a couple of recent studies dug up by CCUK might go someway to validating the local chicken keepers claim.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5037735/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2314853517303918

Then there is this; post #11. Most of us have 'been there and done that,' and learned the hard way.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/worming-treatment.1127510/page-2

I forgot to add that your latitude is about equivalent to New York City. Another northern location here in our country.

 

[dawg53]

Amazing......
Once a year here if that?

You worm your dog once a year? I think they have a chewable wormer that's good for 3 months. Not sure though. There's all kinds of different worms dogs can get. Heartworms are probably the worst, not sure. Hookworms are too and zoonotic.

 

[Shadrach]

@sunrise.superman, Are they molting? If molting that will affect what de-wormers you can use. Can you try to do a fecal? To do a fecal, get fresh poo from the thin ones, stick it in a ziplock baggie, stir well, and take to a vet to have the test done. If positive, that will tell you what types of worms they are. Once you know what type of worm you have, you can decide what wormer to use. If you want to de-worm without a fecal, that's okay too.

According to some studies, ivermectin is not an effective poultry de-wormer. If you want a truly water-soluble de-wormer, your choices levamisole or Wormout gel, but I would not use either of these.

I would be concerned about these birds too.

If they are not molting I would use Valbazen or Safeguard orally, but if you don't want to do them orally, and if they will eat a mash, you could make a de-wormer mash instead. Let me know if you're interested in doing this and I will give you instructions.

---

The rest of you all make very good points, but here are my thoughts and I hope they make some sense...

A person has no way of knowing what worms they have or don't have in their flock unless they do routine fecal exams, and necropsy every bird that dies. Me, I've done fecals, all have been negative, yet I have necropsied a few and found large roundworms and cecal worms, so I know for sure that I have large roundworms and cecal worms.

So what do I do? Because peafowl and turkeys are susceptible to blackhead (histomoniasis), which they get from the cecal worm, my peafowl and turkeys get wormed more often than the chickens and ducks do. And because I have had several false negative fecals, I no longer do fecals. Maybe once I get my lab set up I will teach myself and start doing my own.

Some of you are saying don't de-worm unless you know they have worms and what those worms are, which I *would agree* with *if* they were all in perfect weight, but 1/3 of @sunrise.superman's flock is underweight, and to me that says something is not right. Is it worms? Who knows, but if I were in the OP's shoes and had 5 or 6 out of 15 that were thin, I would de-worm them, and I think many vets might suggest doing that too. I know my vets would.

This is what a vet wrote:
"Prophylactic Deworming
I have been saying this for years (because I have been seeing this for years!) and here it is: Many young and adult birds can be harboring ascarids (especially if they were parent-raised for any length of time) and you can run fecals all day, and guess what? The fecals will almost always be negative. A paper out of the Univ. of Georgia a few years back confirmed this. Many a time I have been a hero when I have dewormed a bird during a second or third opinion, when it passes a pile of ascarids and shocks the owner after being repeatedly told by other vets that "the fecal was negative." Well, deworm it anyway, with something safe. I routinely use pyrantel pamoate, since you can't hurt a bird with it, unless you aspirate it!"
Source:
http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/challenges.html

@sunrise.superman, if you can, get a food scale from Target or Walmart and get baseline weights on all 15 if possible. If you can't do all 15, do just the thin ones. While you have them caught, check them for lice and mites and give them a basic exam. Do you know how to make spreadsheets in Excel? If so, you might find it helpful to make a chart and track their weights. This is what I do with all of my peafowl and turkeys.

Hmmm, I think we could be practicing a rather different kind of chicken keeping.
You lot with the heavy meds and the scales are at liberty to worm your flocks as much as you like while the drugs are effective.
There are lessons to be learn't from the egg and meat production industry regarding the routine use of drugs.
I've got to be honest and state I think an awful lot of the pro worming advice is regurgitated from one site to the next.
You could dismiss the vets here in Spain is incompetent, or ignorant about chicken keeping if you knew little about the history of the chicken.
After a decade of chicken keeping here and minimum obvious problems with worms, plus the advice of local vets and other chicken keepers who don't seem to be on this forum lamenting the death of their chickens at 4 years old; and having a few very healthy looking pensioners myself, I think I'll stick with the local knowledge and my vets advice.
I'm not at all against the use of chemical wormers when they are necessary. What I am against is the routine advice and scare mongering.

 

[Shadrach]

Then there is this; post #11. Most of us have 'been there and done that,' and learned the hard way.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/worming-treatment.1127510/page-2

I forgot to add that your latitude is about equivalent to New York City. Another northern location here in our country.

Yup, a great example. I wonder if they got the advice to use Ivermectin on this forum.
I've seen it recommended a lot here in the past for mites, lice and worms. It doesn't seem to be working the way it used to.

 

[sunrise.superman]

Wow. I didn't meant to start a wee stramash!

I was a vet tech for 20 years, still am really for friends and family, I still get my geek on staying up with veterinary medical stuff and have/had livestock species as well as personal pet type species. I've had chickens before but free ranging on a lot of acreage, inherited them with the property and in no way was I gonna catch em and get a feel or close look. Just enjoyed the eggs they laid in the hay. This group has a large yard, but not acreage, all are social enough to come close, but only 5 or 6 really tolerate being held without feathers flying. There were animals previously on this land, the previous owners were uhhhhh...severely lacking in common sense per evidence found and confirmed by neighbors, and I'm assuming cleanliness was not applied to their animals any more than for themselves.

@casportpony Thank you for the info. A mash deworming might work since I do feed fermended feed. If you have info on that it would be most appreciated. Since I'm in the arid Rockies my birds all drink well which is why I thought a water soluble dewormer might work.

I do not see any mites or lice on the birds that can be well examined. Combs are nice and red and feathers glossy, just thin despite plenty of protein, and a big drop in egg production starting beginning of July...earlier than I expected. Being thin so far is the only symptom.

In my years as a vet tech, many fecal samples came up negative with either adult worms found in the stool of the animal or another fecal a couple of weeks later showing large infestations. So sending off a fecal sample may be fruitless, I don't know whose poo is whose bc of the free range, and looking for the freshest over a large area might be a needle in a haystack. Generally I use more "granola" methods for medical issues, but in my experience, internal parasites are nothing to mess with.

My 3 older hens (2 1/2 yo) that I inherited - 2 moulted in August/Sept and the one usually chooses January for some ungodly reason.

Of my 12-18 mos old birds, 1 is moulting now. The rest are done or not headed there yet.

I've tried searching for dewormer info, especially in water, but I get crazy return results so I hoped starting a thread would target the info better.