farm guinea pigs (meat cavy!)

[Zoomie]

From an outsider's perspective? I don't see what @Fuzzy Torpedoes has said differs in the slightest from what many on here will say about what they know about chickens. I feel that there was concern for someone doing something that might possibly harm the animals... and I don't see how that as an insult. It's concern for the care and well-being of a living, thinking, feeling creature.

@Bug n Flock, you are my hero for rescuing that cavy from the pet store and curing his eye and I honor and acknowledge that you have great skills and credentials. (I am not worthy etc. ) There are lots of people reading this, please try and be patient, I believe this is a misunderstanding and not a deliberate attack on you personally.

I, at least, think the experiment to raise cavies for food is fascinating and totally worth following. I'd be devastated to lose any voice here. You all have a different perspective and that can be so important when one is raising animals. Sometimes what works on my farm will no work on someone else's... if I refused to hear other voices not only I would lose out, but so would my animals.

 

[Bug n Flock]

LOL I do not require veneration or anything silly like that. And if this is a misunderstanding I absolutely apologize 100% for my part in it, but I just got to bristling when Torpedos implied a biologist is in a less specialized field than a small animal vet. Who do you think writes those textbooks that vets reference on husbandry? To follow the logic of "only vets are qualified to advise on husbandry" Dr. Jane Goodall is not qualified to speak on chimp husbandry because she isn't a veterinarian. Which is laughably and utterly not the case.

 

[Zoomie]

LOL I do not require veneration or anything silly like that. And if this is a misunderstanding I absolutely apologize 100% for my part in it, but I just got to bristling when Torpedos implied a biologist is in a less specialized field than a small animal vet. Who do you think writes those textbooks that vets reference on husbandry? To follow the logic of "only vets are qualified to advise on husbandry" Dr. Jane Goodall is not qualified to speak on chimp husbandry because she isn't a veterinarian. Which is laughably and utterly not the case.

Well, I can completely agree with you there. Please don't bristle though, I don't believe any malice is intended... I think it's important to look at the evidence and weigh it carefully. You see, we could not tell right away you are a biologist. I'm sure you have great evidence for animals adapting to a very different environment... why not just post some of those studies? I for one would really be grateful if you did as I love learning. Not everyone is going to be familiar with the literature, as I'm sure you *are* familiar, I would be overwhelmed trying to look it up and would utterly fail. You've probably got it right at your fingertips!

I guess it would be like when you did your thesis, and then had a group of scientists challenge your ideas. They weren't trying to be mean, that's just an important part of science, as I'm sure you well know. Maybe think of Torpedoes as one of those guys. Just fire right back with evidence. That is a total win/win - we all learn more which is so awesome! And I will thank you in advance, and really look forward to your posts!

 

[Fuzzy Torpedoes]

I don't like reading where you have put words into my mouth that I did not say, so I'm going to clarify some of that.

I just got to bristling when Torpedos implied a biologist is in a less specialized field than a small animal vet.

I made no statements about fields of biology and their various specialities. You have simply stated that you are a biologist and taking that at face value, I have no idea what your area of specialization may be. Nowhere did I state that you do not have one, or that biology itself has no areas of specialization.

Who do you think writes those textbooks that vets reference on husbandry? To follow the logic of "only vets are qualified to advise on husbandry" Dr. Jane Goodall is not qualified to speak on chimp husbandry because she isn't a veterinarian. Which is laughably and utterly not the case.

This example using Jane Goodall is not sensible. Jane Goodall is free to "speak" about chimp husbandry all she cares to. But if she is not a primate specialist veterinarian, she is not qualified to throw chimpanzee husbandry guidelines that have been established by primate veterinary specialists *down the toilet and replace them with her arbitrary impressions* (nor would she attempt to, she has better sense than that). Correspondingly: someone (ANYONE, NOT SPECIFIC TO YOU SO DON'T FREAK OUT, TURN OFF THE POLICE SIRENS) who does not have the corresponding qualifications for cavies should not consider themselves free to arbitrarily and single-handedly discard and rewrite the care guidelines for intensive guinea pig breeding.

These are my beliefs and I am entitled to have them, and I believe I am entitled to state them in this thread. Further, there is no sensible reason for you to perceive these beliefs of mine as personal attacks against you.

You are entitled to believe the contrary, and also, to state whatever those beliefs are. But no-one is entitled to attack people as a substitute for addressing their points, and I feel like you've done that to me a few times in this thread.

Lastly, you apparently hate my writing style. If it is necessary to write in long unbroken paragraphs that are unclear and chaotic in order to satisfy your sense of writing aesthetics, I won't be accommodating that. This is how I write, and that's how it is.

Having said all of that, I don't prefer to further a bunch of drama that does not properly belong in this thread. So, I'm ending this post with a guinea pig.

This is Button. She is on day 61 of her second pregnancy. The main reason she is in a small individual pen instead of her regular group housing is to reduce the chance that she will sustain a catastrophic hip injury as a result of a stressful interaction with another guinea pig.

Several factors make a hip injury at this stage of the pregnancy higher than normal, such as her greatly increased weight and her generalized bad attitude toward other guinea pigs (more willing to attack and chase). The small, individual pen is perfect for this circumstance, and she appears visibly less stressed in this housing situation at this stage of the pregnancy.

 

[Bug n Flock]

Where did I attack you? I have already apologized for my part in this and I do not believe that I have used a single personal attack against you.

Perhaps I read too much into when you said "Or/and, that a degree in a different or less-specialized scientific field (such as a biological sciences degree)". Or maybe I am misunderstanding your use of "biological sciences degree" as any degrees under the broad "biology" category and you mean literally a degree in some field titled "biological sciences"?

I never asked you to change your writing style, nor did I say I hated it. What I said was bothering me was your patronizing tone. However, much of communication is nonverbal, so we are of course limited in our exchange, and you could very well not be using a patronizing tone to your eye. I really don't appreciate you implying even still that what I and others here are doing is arbitrary and/or harmful to the animals, but perhaps you are simply stating your concern and not realizing that to some others your comments could be viewed as accusatory. Further, many of your comments read to me as being fairly antagonistic (for example "(ANYONE, NOT SPECIFIC TO YOU SO DON'T FREAK OUT, TURN OFF THE POLICE SIRENS)" "These are my beliefs and I am entitled to have them, and I believe I am entitled to state them in this thread." Not only did I not try to shut you down, I EXPLICITLY thanked you for your input and asked you to stick around).

Just my 2c.

And @Zoomie , I'll keep that in mind and post up what studies for you lot that aren't behind a paywall. But it is 1 AM here, and I really should call it a night(morning?).

Final takeaway? I hope we can squash this, @Fuzzy Torpedoes, and keep learning from each other.

 

[CertifiedChaser]

As someone who's been watching this thread pretty regularly I was curious about how often do guinea pigs breed? With a space of rest in between breedings of course.

 

[Zoomie]

As someone who's been watching this thread pretty regularly I was curious about how often do guinea pigs breed? With a space of rest in between breedings of course.

I was curious about this too. There was the incidence of the boar breeding the sow immediately after birth. Is this a good practice? Or does scientific literature show it's better to wait? Now, I raise horses, goats, chickens and canaries. With horses and goats, I would not allow the male to breed the female on her "foal heat" (they generally have a heat cycle immediately after birth) BUT those are goats and horses. Is it different for cavies? That would be so interesting to find out!

 

[Fuzzy Torpedoes]

Guinea pigs have an estrus every 15 days or so, and there is an estrus that starts very shortly after she gives birth (called the "post-partum estrus") that often leads to a pregnancy if it is utilized. Intensive breeding programs either have the boar breeding to the post-partum estrus or breeding to the sow at the estrus after the babies are off of her.

From what I've found so far, the whole question of "breeding breaks" isn't well studied in guinea pigs by scientists. I will guess this is because they don't use guinea pigs in that way. They need guinea pigs for what they're doing, so they do intensive breeding programs, and that's that. Same with the cuy situation in South America. Nobody who is doing this for real is jerking around with "breeding breaks".

One fact that they did determine was that if a sow has a "breeding break", the litter afterwards tends to be larger. Larger litters also have a proven relationship to increased stillbirths, and to the best of my understanding, larger litters are harder on the sow for both the pregnancy and the nursing. IMO this is not something to strive for.

For someone who's micromanaging the breeding schedule (you and me, as small producers, can do this), you would interrupt a sow's breeding schedule to allow for full recovery from any infirmity or medical situation or such. I am not sure a big producer would notice a sow that had something a bit off, but smaller producers like us have that advantage and can prevent sow catastrophes. IMO delaying for any questionable medical issue until it is fixed is ideal.

An example I can explain right now about a breeding break that is IMO valid:

I have a sow that demonstrated upper respiratory symptoms for about 30 seconds while she was nursing a litter. The animals are housed near me, and I heard it just once. When I walked over there, she stopped. I don't utilize the post-partum estrus so she was open at the time.

Upper respiratory infection is a big thing in these, you do NOT want one to be sitting around and then flare up during late pregnancy. Catastrophic.

Knowing this, when it was time to wean her babies, I took her to a vet (specialized small animal vet) (yes it was that big a deal, despite having only heard it once). The vet was able to hear that her right lung was slightly louder than her left (just slightly louder - it's a good vet, this was tricky to catch). The sow was put on oral antibiotics for 2 weeks, and the vet specified not to let the boar cover her for 2 more weeks after stopping the antibiotics (apparently that extra 2 weeks being related to the antibiotics specifically). So, this sow is getting a 1 month break for medical reasons.

There are other reasons of course that would be valid. I postponed a month once for cheilitis. Late-winter hay had tiny splinters in it and essentially injured a sow's mouth, and I didn't breed her until it was cleared up with the help of anti-fungal cream (painful mouth affects food intake negatively, I could see this in her weight when I weighed daily. Them being able to eat and get their full nutrition is important).

If there is no medical reason, and everything looks perfect, I haven't seen a reason specified in any of the quality vet stuff I've read to delay for the sheer heck of it.

See if this link works:

https://books.google.fi/books?id=Dc...fi&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

If the link works, scroll to page 9, you want to read pages 9 and 10 for these details. If that link does not work, the book's name is "The Biology of the Guinea Pig" by Joseph E. Wagner, the first part of the book is visible in Google Books.

A little bit of this book is not perfect, for example in the nutrition section, it suggests kale as a valuable green feed. I have a very good small animal specialist suggesting not to use kale. Also, it suggests vitamins going directly in the water, this is maybe not as clear-cut as this book suggests. But aside from a few little things, this book is golden as a source for the kind of information you're looking for.

What's in this book (and other veterinary textbooks like it) supersedes EVERYTHING you will find on hobbyist web sites. Hobbyists and even some animal welfare organizations are making up their own "facts" about guinea pigs, from the cage space required, to the nature of sex determination within litters, to their nutrition, to when to start a new sow in breeding, to "breeding breaks", the list goes on and on. If you don't see something discussed or recommended in the veterinary material, but hobbyists are spewing it, beware of pseudo-science.

 

[Fuzzy Torpedoes]

Final takeaway? I hope we can squash this, @Fuzzy Torpedoes, and keep learning from each other

Yeah. That.

 

[Zoomie]

@Fuzzy Torpedoes: Thank you, I'm going to read that. Very much appreciate that.