Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[Beekissed]

Do you find white rocks more productive than barred rocks and other color varieties, or do you just prefer white feathers?

Yep, heads and feathers above the other varieties I have tried of the Rocks~barred and Partridge~though I have no experience with the buff, silver pencil, Columbian or Blue. They are heavier than those varieties I have tried and are more consistent and long lived layers, hardier, have better feather loft and quality, and are more even tempered and well socialized than them. I find the separate varieties as different as night and day from one another, so they aren't just a different color but a different bird.

 

[HeritageGoose13]

Yep, heads and feathers above the other varieties I have tried of the Rocks~barred and Partridge~though I have no experience with the buff, silver pencil, Columbian or Blue. They are heavier than those varieties I have tried and are more consistent and long lived layers, hardier, have better feather loft and quality, and are more even tempered and well socialized than them. I find the separate varieties as different as night and day from one another, so they aren't just a different color but a different bird.

Interesting. I imagine this is probably because the colored varieties have been bred for show/looks more than the white ones. That would be my guess.

So, say you received a flock of Rocks- some white and some colored. Would you cross them for vigor, or do you think mixing them would hurt production? In other words, is it better to just stick with the white variety?

 

[Fred's Hens]

Actually being bred to the Standard for the breed is the whole point of this section on BYC. APA type, Standard bred White Rocks dwarf the hatchery stock I've had, and I've had more than a few over the past 50 years, plus. I raised and bred three distinct heritage strains of WR last year and the grow out rate, age to lay, age to butcher, age to breed differed greatly. There was substantive differences in those strains.

Bee's White Plymouth Rocks are Standard bred fowl, bred from birds for decades in a long heritage of purebred birds. I know because I helped her obtain them. The point is simply this. You just cannot make generalizations regarding "breeds", you must speak of specific strains with which you are familiar, have seen, have raised and perhaps have even shown. Some strains of White Rocks lay very well for a heavy, pretty decent meat bird. Other strains are tiny and not bred to the Standard and are merely Leghorns blooded commerical layers posing as White Rocks. White can cover just about anything. They will lay you up a storm of eggs. It is all what the strain has been bred to do.

All that said, there are indeed lines and strains that utility has NOT been a priority, showing has been the focus for many generations. It is a buyer beware world, caveat emptor. Know the strain of birds you're buying and know what your plans are for them.

 

[HeritageGoose13]

Actually being bred to the Standard for the breed is the whole point of this section on BYC. APA type, Standard bred White Rocks dwarf the hatchery stock I've had, and I've had more than a few over the past 50 years, plus. I raised and bred three distinct heritage strains of WR last year and the grow out rate, age to lay, age to butcher, age to breed differed greatly. There was substantive differences in those strains.

Bee's White Plymouth Rocks are Standard bred fowl, bred from birds for decades in a long heritage of purebred birds. I know because I helped her obtain them. The point is simply this. You just cannot make generalizations regarding "breeds", you must speak of specific strains with which you are familiar, have seen, have raised and perhaps have even shown. Some strains of White Rocks lay very well for a heavy, pretty decent meat bird. Other strains are tiny and not bred to the Standard and are merely Leghorns blooded commerical layers posing as White Rocks. White can cover just about anything. They will lay you up a storm of eggs. It is all what the strain has been bred to do.

All that said, there are indeed lines and strains that utility has NOT been a priority, showing has been the focus for many generations. It is a buyer beware world, caveat emptor. Know the strain of birds you're buying and know what your plans are for them.

Ah, yes, I understand. I did not realize this thread was in the exhibition section. What I mean by bred for show is birds strictly bred for show, without regard to production.

EDIT: Would also like to add, I don't think you can really consider "hatchery stock" Plymouth Rocks to even be plymouth rocks since they've been so cross-bred.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Breeding for "the show" doesn't necessarily force you into breeding birds with no utility or no productivity. Not at all. It's all about the priorities of the breder. There are terrific Rock breeders or various varieties that breed breath-taking examples of the breed and when they coop in with those beauties, you almost concede the BV and BB to them. When you get to know the folks better you may find out that some of them have virtually no problems with solid egg laying, while other strains have been so bred "into a corner" that utility is now really taken a far back seat. Same with maturity rates, etc.

It is all in what one breeds for. If you keep selecting for a certain aspect or trait, that's what you're focuing on. Sometimes others aspects get lost as unimportant to the breeder. Breeding implies human selection, forcing the susequent generations to express the genes chosen. Breeds are not species, of course, so since breeds are man-made, strains within breeds are even more so. Humans doing art and science projects. That's pretty much what breeding is.

 

[Beekissed]

Interesting. I imagine this is probably because the colored varieties have been bred for show/looks more than the white ones. That would be my guess.

So, say you received a flock of Rocks- some white and some colored. Would you cross them for vigor, or do you think mixing them would hurt production? In other words, is it better to just stick with the white variety?

Not really, as most of my experience with the breed varieties has been with hatchery stock and I am just recently experiencing those bred for the standard of the breed and the White variety only in that regard. Admittedly, though, I have no experience with SOP Barred Rocks or Partridge Rocks, so even that difference could make them all more similar to the White Rock variety in regards to carcass wt and density and production levels, but my experience is limited to the hatchery stock differences and that's most likely what you would be dealing with unless you are wanting to go towards breeder quality birds.

IME, and that's just mine alone, the WRs don't need any crossing for vigor, as they seem pretty perfect all on their own. Now, crossing different lines of WRs may be beneficial towards that goal, but I can't see where crossing the different breed varieties would have any affect at all towards that goal.

 

[Beekissed]

Breeding for "the show" doesn't necessarily force you into breeding birds with no utility or no productivity. Not at all. It's all about the priorities of the breder. There are terrific Rock breeders or various varieties that breed breath-taking examples of the breed and when they coop in with those beauties, you almost concede the BV and BB to them. When you get to know the folks better you may find out that some of them have virtually no problems with solid egg laying, while other strains have been so bred "into a corner" that utility is now really taken a far back seat. Same with maturity rates, etc.

It is all in what one breeds for. If you keep selecting for a certain aspect or trait, that's what you're focuing on. Sometimes others aspects get lost as unimportant to the breeder. Breeding implies human selection, forcing the susequent generations to express the genes chosen. Breeds are not species, of course, so since breeds are man-made, strains within breeds are even more so. Humans doing art and science projects. That's pretty much what breeding is.

I agree! Different focus on breeding produces different traits. I, for one, and there are others like me, who would like to take it all the way to having a bird that closely mimics the breed standard but is also still good for dual purpose utility. It may be a hard road to travel but worthy of doing all the same. Won't happen overnight and certainly won't happen like magic, but the breed was once renowned for laying and a world record for laying for a 2 yr old hen was set by a WR hen back in the early 1900s.....Lady Show Me laid 281 eggs that year. Not too shabby for a dual purpose breed of 2 yrs of age.

 

[Fred's Hens]

You're spider senses are correct here, Bee.

Barred Rock folks commonly reach out to get White blood for tails on males, size in birds, and so forth. Columbian Rocks breeders have done the same. Mostly folks just lust after the freakin' ginormous size of the White rocks.

While it may be happening somewhere that I've not heard, I am not aware of White Rock breeders reaching out for much. They'll often do some strain blending for some help on a specific trait but that's about it. At most shows, other Rock varieites sometimes appear dwarfed by the huge White Rocks. This brings out the usual complaints the Whites are too large, over weight for the Standard. But that's another whole bunny trail.

 

[hellbender]

I've done some reading on the history of the White Rock and I'm just about convinced that there is no relationship at all to the other Plymouth Rock color schemes but Information seems sketchy and hard to find.

Still...that's MY opinion.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Yes, history is sketchy on the beginning of the Rock. The Barred was first. There's still debate as to which foundation breeds were blended to produce the Barred Plymouth Rock, but Cochin, American Dominque, Black Java, etc were likely blended into the mix. It is claimed that the Whites were sports out the early develpment programs, but who is to say? That too is pretty cloudy historically.

The Columbians, Buff, Silver Penciled, Partridge, etc are all radically different in their composite of different foundational makeup.

What makes a Rock a Rock? It must conform to the agreed upon "standard" for the breed description which, with rather small touches, has remained relatively untouched for 150 years. Pretty good I'd say. The TYPE makes a breed, not it's composition of foundational birds used no matter how diverse. If you can put the gentics together so that the out come in silhouette is a Plymouth Rock, then it got accepted as a Rock.

Apart from a few foundational birds of landrace stock, all breeds are man-made mutts/mixes/blends that finally come to breed true to a descriptive standard. The Plymouth Rock dates to the perioed following the Ware between the States. Some breeds have only a few years of history and are still very much works in art projects in progress.

The composite nature of the many of the birds is still being tweaked and touched to bring the birds back in line with the Plymouth Rock breed standard. Some of the varieites are in desperate shape, others just in poor shape while other varieites are widely held in pretty decent shape. My personal feeling is that the Buff, Partridge and especially the Silver Penciled need the most work, by far. It is very difficult to find good examples.

The White Rock is in the best shape. Just MY opinion.

I just wish the variety held more common appeal. Sadly, it does not. Most folks want pretty lawn art in fancy, smachy shades and colors. Shrug.