Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[BGMatt]

What's wrong with average? The mean would be average. "Allow stagnation and regression to the mean over time"...why, how? I guess I just don't understand how a breed could go backward? If the hen and roo are true to breed to start with, and reproduce, the offspring would still be true to breed. Like catdaddyfro stated below:
I'm trying to glean and learn as much as possible before we start our new flock this spring. I somewhat understand both arguments. I understand separation. I'm looking to keep my chickens self sustaining. If all I want is to purchase a good quality starter flock and continue to propagate from there, why can't I? If I am going to keep a flock it will be strong birds that perform the way that I wish. Why would they not continue to hold to breed and perform even with communal/flock breeding?

I guess I chose poor wording. It would go backward because that is the way of nature. Prior to the late 1800's the average chicken laid 60-75 or so eggs a year. It wasn't until they figured out selective breeding that they brought them up to better standards. If you allow them to flock breed only, that means that the birds on the low end of the bell curve will also reproduce, and over time you will see your flock slowly fall further and further behind. Same with slow growth, and overall size for meat qualities too. Heck ask some of those dirty "show" breeders how hard it is to keep size up on some of these breeds, and notice how small the hatchery bred birds are? If our chicken breeds today were naturally occurring and their traits were naturally occurring, a product of natural selection, then you could communally flock breed and be fine, but they're not, so you can't.

You can absolutely purchase a good starter flock and continue to propagate from there. But without a good selective breeding program it will falter eventually. You will have to continually select the birds that give you the qualities you're searching for and breed from them. As has been pointed out, this is the Farming and homesteading thread, so most in here aren't going to care if a bird has slightly off color (say a black feather in a barred bird) but that grows fast, has a good frame for egg laying (long wide and deep) and lays early while being very active in foraging if allowed. That would be a good bird for someone who is concerned with producing food for themselves and their family. You wouldn't want to breed from that bird's hatch mate maybe though, if that hatch mate was slower maturing, pinched at the tail, not very active and vigorous. If you were flock breeding, you wouldn't know if the eggs you were hatching came from that inferior bird, or if it came from the good bird. That's all anyone is saying.

 

[AletaG]

I think you may be thinking of a 'breed' as a 'species'.

Here's a genetic general explanation:

Breed X has 300 genes. But, in a given bird, only 150 of those genes are *expressed*, and maybe 50 expressed genes show up as a *trait* you can see, touch, measure or taste.

So even when Hen A of Breed X expresses all 50 of those measureable traits as ideal (lays 200 eggs/yr, has fabulous breast meat, perfect feathering) She's going to pass 150 genes on to her offspring. Out of 300. And some of the *unexpressed* genes will be expressed in those offspring. And perhaps those expressed genes will be worse feathering, less laying capacity.

By active selection and breeding, you can place *pressure* that will increase the *likelihood* not a *gaurantee* that your offspring will have more desirable trait genetics. In an ideal world, maybe in the guys yard Bob was talking about who's intense, and has been working very, very hard, you still will NOT have the perfect chicken. You will probably never see a bird, who's entire 300 gene content will give good results, no matter which are expressed. SO, if you let them mate at random, the odds you are playing put pressure in the wrong direction.

The pressure placed in a random environment: more aggressive, more maneuverable cock gets the hens (so less good for meat), most aggressive, most maneuverable hen will get the most food. We aren't breeding the naturally 'fittest' when we breed our DP homestead fowl. We're breeding for output for US. If it helps, picture a 'wild' flock of orpingtons... wouldn't last long, right?

Does that help at all?

What's wrong with average? The mean would be average. "Allow stagnation and regression to the mean over time"...why, how? I guess I just don't understand how a breed could go backward? If the hen and roo are true to breed to start with, and reproduce, the offspring would still be true to breed. Like catdaddyfro stated below:
I'm trying to glean and learn as much as possible before we start our new flock this spring. I somewhat understand both arguments. I understand separation. I'm looking to keep my chickens self sustaining. If all I want is to purchase a good quality starter flock and continue to propagate from there, why can't I? If I am going to keep a flock it will be strong birds that perform the way that I wish. Why would they not continue to hold to breed and perform even with communal/flock breeding?

 

[catdaddyfro]

I guess I chose poor wording. It would go backward because that is the way of nature. Prior to the late 1800's the average chicken laid 60-75 or so eggs a year. It wasn't until they figured out selective breeding that they brought them up to better standards. If you allow them to flock breed only, that means that the birds on the low end of the bell curve will also reproduce, and over time you will see your flock slowly fall further and further behind. Same with slow growth, and overall size for meat qualities too. Heck ask some of those dirty "show" breeders how hard it is to keep size up on some of these breeds, and notice how small the hatchery bred birds are? If our chicken breeds today were naturally occurring and their traits were naturally occurring, a product of natural selection, then you could communally flock breed and be fine, but they're not, so you can't.

You can absolutely purchase a good starter flock and continue to propagate from there. But without a good selective breeding program it will falter eventually. You will have to continually select the birds that give you the qualities you're searching for and breed from them. As has been pointed out, this is the Farming and homesteading thread, so most in here aren't going to care if a bird has slightly off color (say a black feather in a barred bird) but that grows fast, has a good frame for egg laying (long wide and deep) and lays early while being very active in foraging if allowed. That would be a good bird for someone who is concerned with producing food for themselves and their family. You wouldn't want to breed from that bird's hatch mate maybe though, if that hatch mate was slower maturing, pinched at the tail, not very active and vigorous. If you were flock breeding, you wouldn't know if the eggs you were hatching came from that inferior bird, or if it came from the good bird. That's all anyone is saying.

Now that's what I'm talking about. Sorry if i didn't get enough across in my post to cover this, I'm bad in commnicating that way. I agree here with BGMatts summarization, too

Jeff

 

[lcahill]

I sight every 2 x4 as I choose them out of lumber pile too. My crop rows are laser straight too. Shoot, I like straight lines when I mow the grass.

Well, good buddy, I carefully select which ears of corn, and from which row for my seed. I carefully leave a half dozen choice tomatoes to vine ripen so I can squish the seed from them and only them.. Very particular, I am.

I save back the seed from only my finest hard winter squash and those seed only. We're real selective about where we get a straw of semen for our dairy cow and we're mulling over who's boar will use on the boy's prized young sow he's got.


I'm just goofy that way. I just call it good farming.

OK, I'm outta here. Done with this. Have a great day everybody.

Fred's Hens, I am sorry if I touched you off. I am an information junkie. I like to know as much as possible. I was probing for as much info as I could get. I am a lot like what you described with picking veggies to propagate from and what not, straight rows, mowing straight, etc, but I am only a year into chickens. I know quite well how to care for and raise poultry. Now I want to develop a long term plan for my flock, which obviously would include breeding. I cannot start my new flock until spring so I am in preparation mode: find out what works and what doesn't and why. With the information that has been written in the last 20 or so posts, and the entire thread in general, I can begin to develop a plan of attack. Now all I need to figure out is what breed to put my time and effort into.

So, what are good breeds to focus on? I don't own a standards book yet so I don't know what are considered heritage. (I haven't looked into that yet) RIR, and Barred Rocks are two I know, and Leghorns?
To BGMatt, catdaddyfro, maryhysong, AletaG, and others: thanks for the information.

 

[Fentress]

Great Discussion. You guys rock as usual. I started with hatchery birds last year and they were ok, if you like demonic roosters and scrawney carcasses. I'm in a similar a position as Icahill. I will start breeding next year and need to figure out exactly what I can accomplish. I insist on mobile coops and fences to keep the birds on pasture and I am hooked on broody hens both of which create some logistical issues, but I will be making some type of selection(s) and keeping a record of it. I am sure of that, just need to find a system that works for me. For now I think the broody cages will go in the coop with the flock (that worked this year) and the breeders will be in separate chicken tractors, of which I have a grand total of 1 to date. And if that is still all I have come spring I will make my selections and be happy with it. It's not a race, at least not for me.

Mark

 

[Extra Java]

You are always going to be encountering culls. Poultry is atavisitc...in other words, they are a result of crosses either accidental or intentional and there is a constant tendency for them to revert back to the breeds in their make up. There have been rose to single comb matings, white to yellow skin matings and some have had Game blood introduced.

I once purchased a line that used flock mating for years without attentive selection. They had such poor leg sets and tight pelvis area that I could not get my hand into the bird to process it and it was one of the largest chickens I ever had on my farm. If you select a male like this, he will pass this on and It will be a difficult trait to eliminate and now all of your hens could become egg bound - if not, poor layers etc. This is also why birds become knock kneed. We are speaking of domesticated chickens and they need selection or the second law of thermodynamics begins to take effect. (dis-order & chaos)

Frank Reese (Good Shepherd Poultry) raises heritage breeds to be productive for meat. He is an experienced breeder.

"Fred's Hens" made an excellent point...he saves the BEST seed for next years crop. Is that BEST seed going to produce the exact same size & shape tomatoes? I'm sure Fred will have to re-select the following year.

The SOP isn't just for show people, it's a guide indicating what X breed should look like with production in mind.

This is exactly what my article is about in this months Java Breeders of America newsletter. Mr. Blosl's article will also be featured in it as well.


Glenis

 

[Extra Java]

This should help...

http://www.livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage

http://www.livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/conservation-priority-list#Chickens

 

[Fred's Hens]

Icahill, it's all good. No problem.

 

[maryhysong]

Now all I need to figure out is what breed to put my time and effort into.

So, what are good breeds to focus on? I don't own a standards book yet so I don't know what are considered heritage. (I haven't looked into that yet) RIR, and Barred Rocks are two I know, and Leghorns?
To BGMatt, catdaddyfro, maryhysong, AletaG, and others: thanks for the information.

your're welcome. I am new to breeding to the chicken SOP but I have bred other animals to their standards and believe me, standard bred animals of any type are the most beautiful you can imagine.

Now what shall you get? Well what do you want them for? Will you sell eggs as a business or just an occasional dz as you have extras beyond what you need for hatching and eating? Will you raise a batch of chicks with mostly the thought of filling the freezer? Do you want to help preserve and improve a rare breed and help it come back from extinction? Is there any particular breed/pattern/color that you especially like (or that you can't stand) ? After all if you don't like and enjoy watching them, you are not likely to give them the attention they need.

It is very difficult to get standard bred large fowl out here and if I had to do over I think I would go for some of those ringlet barred rocks from Good Shepherd. I got to see some in person and they are just wowzers. Those ladies made hatchery birds look like midgets. And if I lived anywhere near dragonlady I would have some of her beautiful golden buff orpingtons. Instead I am working on Black Copper Marans. A fairly new breed in this country with a lot of issues, but I love a challenge and the sense of satisfaction I get when the offspring of my breeding selections are an improvement over their parents. Marans are dual purpose birds with extra dark eggs. They also have a lot of color issues, so there will be a lot of things to work on as I go along.

So you might cruise through some of the breed threads here and look at the pictures and investigate those that sound interesting to you and that might fit your purposes. That way you can also get to know some of the breeders and make contact for chicks or hatching eggs before spring.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Icahill,

In layman's terms: the true to SOP birds that you purchase will probably NOT make carbon copies of themselves. Therefore, if you don't watch for excellent traits (marking these birds somehow) and put your hands on your birds to examine for laying capacity, good muscling, etc., like someone else said, you may be breeding scrawny, tight bodied birds and not realize it. Those birds grow up and reproduce and add their poor genes to your flock of already suffering type and it continues. It's a lot easier to breed poor quality than better quality. You search out your poor quality birds and add them to your food supply.