Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[AletaG]

The Amish/Mennonite raise CX type meat birds. I'm not understanding.

Was that a question? What isn't to understand? Sorry Fred. Maybe it's the phrasing, but I'm not sure what you mean...

 

[Extra Java]

I think he was wondering why Amish would purchase hybrids since they have problems reproducing.

Here is one of my Dorking hens harvested last weekend.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Not important. An earlier comment seemed to suggest that the Amish/Mennonite community wouldn't raise "Frankenbirds" but I they do and will raise hybrids. They'll order them in just like other folks do. They'll also order in ISA Browns, a terminal cross egg layer.

Again, no big deal.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I think he was wondering why Amish would purchase hybrids since they have problems reproducing.

Here is one of my Dorking hens harvested last weekend.

Nice birds. Nice breast formation.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Well, Amish question or no Amish question, heritage fowl are Standard-bred fowl, and they're not in the Standard.

 

[AletaG]

<Sigh> My understanding is that it requires 4 heritage line breeds to produce... I'm trying to find out more. It's not that the MG *is* heritage in the SOP sense, obviously not. But, if it requires good maintenance of 4 breeds, that piques me. Isn't that justification for increases in chicken math? Anyway, am following a couple of leads offline ('cause the technology thing). Bunny trail ends for now...

 

[flowerchild59]

I have several amish neighbors and they all raise black stars or other egg layers or crosses. One of the younger amish guys was over last year giving me a bid on the poultry house fence and my huge marans blue rooster came strutting out and he said dead pan, "Why, that's the biggest cock I have ever seen". All I said is yes, he is one big rooster and left it at that.
I am almost sure they raise Cornish crosses. I have seen the white birds in their backyards. They were down looking at some of my RC RIR's the other day. I am hoping they might take a couple off of my hands. They are over 5 mos now, time to do the culling. I have purchased a killing cone and me and my dtr plan to do the deed as soon as it cools off a bit. I will post pics. They feel pretty hefty. Will weigh a few and post pics of the carcasses.

 

[cbnovick]

I think he was wondering why Amish would purchase hybrids since they have problems reproducing.

Here is one of my Dorking hens harvested last weekend.

NICE! You said 'hen' so I am assuming 1+ years old at harvest???

 

[bnjrob]

Ok,
I will take a stab at this. If you want your hens to lay best during the winter you need to have two things. A March-hatched female and sprouted oats. Sussex are historically bred to be an excellent winter-laying breed This is because they are an English breed and in England, the 1st big Holiday of the year is Derby Day. Fattened poultry were/are a huge feast item on Derby Day. So one reason the Sussex became such a fine winter layer was to lay eggs and raise chicks early in the year so they would be fattened and ready for the Derby Day market. Sussex are raised all year round in England, but the best winter layers are March-hatched birds.
On to part 2. If you want to bring your females into lay you need to feed them sprouted oats. Not just any sprouted oat. You need to sprout forage oats ( like the kind they plant in pastures for livestock to forage on or in feed plots for deer to eat. ( Plotspike is my fav brand {Tractor Supply Company}). Not Feed oats like they give horses to eat in the barns. Sprouted oats are interesting. From 1 thru 3 days old they are considered Grain Feed. They are fed as part of the daily ration for the birds. On the 4th day, a nutritional change takes place in the oat sprout and they become Green Feed. Now they are fed as a supplement to the daily ration. Feed spouts 4-7 days old. There is no advantage to growing them older than 7 days. They do not become more nutritious after 7 days old. After the sprouts are 7 days old, I do not feed them because there is a larger chance they might go bad. The spouts should feel and smell fresh. If they look or feel slimy or off-color/off-smell, throw them out and start again.
It is this Green Feed which helps bring your hens into lay. It also helps the male create more robust sperm so the chicks he fathers are more robust. Each adult bird should get one cubic inch of green feed sprouted oats per day. There are a bunch of methods for sprouting them. All easy. See pages 24 thru 29 of this thread for all kinds of sprouting methods:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/425134/anybody-raise-sprouts-to-feed-the-chickens/230
. Forage oats have been proven thru scientific studies to be the absolute best seed to spout for poultry for these purposes.
I keep my birds under lights 24/7 in the winter from first freeze to last freeze ( beg. of Nov. to mid-March). I have a 4'x6'x4'high coop and use an 85 watt bulb in the rafters. This keeps the cocks comb from freezing. I do not worry about lengthening or shortening days, they just get light 24/7. Now I have read this is not normal and the night time is a good thing. But I would rather have unfrozen combs than a hassle with augmenting the daylight.
Best,
Karen
Waterford English Light Sussex
in western PA, USA

Karen,

How long do you soak your oats for? I got some of those from TSC and had very poor results. Tried soaking anywhere from overnight up to 48 hours and still only had maybe 10% of the oats actually sprout. I had much better results sprouting some stuff that was meant for human consumption - but I can't afford to buy that stuff for as many chickens as we have now on a routine basis. Had tried getting some other stuff from the feedstore but I guess it had been treated because it wouldn't sprout at all. Was hoping that the forage oats from TSC would do the trick but now....am wondering if I got a bad bag or didn't soak long enough. Or maybe it's just my Murphy's Law curse coming out.

 

[bnjrob]

Thanks! I needed to hear an explanation. (Your two cents are very welcomed here) As I said, we do our homework before we jump into a project. I would also like an explanation about WHY it would drive a flock backwards, just so I know. Someone just telling me no won't satisfy me, I need to hear the ins and outs of why, so thank you.
New question: I've only raised chickens, never bred them so what would the space requirements be for the aforementioned breeding pens. As a homestead family we really watch our pennies so having size requirements would be nice. Not "rules of thumbs", maybe personal pens as examples.

You really can hatch a bunch of chicks out of just a few birds. This was our first year to breed and we are growing out more than 30 juveniles from only 2 breeding pens of 1 cock and 3 hens in each pen. We could have hatched more if we had wanted to and still had eggs to eat since we do have a small food-egg flock of birds that didn't make the breeding cut.

We try to go by the 4 sq ft of floor space in the coop and 10 sq ft of ground space in the run for each bird. This gives everyone room to stretch, they have room if they want or need to stay in the coop because of weather. Even when they have not been able to free range for a bit, we dont see problems that can occur when birds are confined in small spaces. The breeder birds only get supervised free range time with me and a shotgun sitting in the pasture as a lookout.

What's wrong with average? The mean would be average. "Allow stagnation and regression to the mean over time"...why, how? I guess I just don't understand how a breed could go backward? If the hen and roo are true to breed to start with, and reproduce, the offspring would still be true to breed. Like catdaddyfro stated below:
I'm trying to glean and learn as much as possible before we start our new flock this spring. I somewhat understand both arguments. I understand separation. I'm looking to keep my chickens self sustaining. If all I want is to purchase a good quality starter flock and continue to propagate from there, why can't I? If I am going to keep a flock it will be strong birds that perform the way that I wish. Why would they not continue to hold to breed and perform even with communal/flock breeding?

No matter how close to the Standard of Perfection the breeder birds are, chicken genetics are very complicated and they don't always mesh together in the way that you think they will (it isn't like the simple Mendelian pea plant genetics you probably learned in middle school). There are genes in chickens that only show up under certain conditions. You will still get birds that are not up to the SOP when you breed good birds. So if you allow flock breeding, there are infinitely more chances of genes coming together in the wrong way so that you get even more birds that are not up to standard.

It may be hard to understand right now, but after you get to know your birds and do your first hatches, you will see the difference that it makes when you make particular pairings of birds. And even then, sometimes things crop up out of the blue.

Example: From one of our breeding pens, we hatched a cockerel with droopy wings (wings look almost vertical instead of horizontal) and he has a side sprig sticking out of his comb. Neither the breeding cock or the hens he is with, have these issues, yet the dna mixed up together to make these defects in this particular offspring. In some of the other offspring from this particular breeding pen, we have some pullets that have tails that are looking ok, and others that have pinched tails. Some of them have the wrong tail angle for a Java, others have an ok tail angle. Some have good thick legs and some others have legs that aren't as big. Some of them are pretty heavy while others are not as heavy as they should be for their age and breed.

You just don't know how those ova and sperm are going to interact with each other. But believe me, once you do a hatch or two and see how they grow out, it will make more sense to you about how your choices affect the outcome of the offspring.