Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[unkadan]

My eggs are very fertile, but not hatching. As I have tinkered with incubation and storage parameters, hatch ability has improved to ~60% at best. Early in the season I had quitters at all ages, now they die between day 19 and pipping. Big buzzkill. Out of 72 eggs 70 have been fertile, and I have 14 healthy chicks.

Just out of curiosity, do you lay your eggs down in the hatcher or have you tried standing them with the air cell up?

 

[capayvalleychick]

So your eggs are fertile? The ones that don't hatch, do you open the egg to see what stage of development they were at when they died? I just wonder if its always the same stage or if it varies. Do they make it all the way to day 21 and just don't hatch?

Last year, the main issue was hatchability, with some poor fertility. Yes, all eggs are examined for development.

Last year:
167 eggs set in 2013 = 52 chicks = 31% hatch rate
26 total not fertile- some in early Spring, which was resolved - then again when hot weather set in.
47 early quitters. 42 late quitters.

This year, so far: 47 eggs set (not counting 58 incubating right now and 39 more starting tomorrow.) 11 live chicks. 23% hatch rate.
16 were not fertile, most from one hen who has not produced a fertile egg so far this year. 20 quitters. Most of them late quitters, many of them living and pip but die in shell.

YH had suggested last year that maybe their diet was too high in calcium. I wondered about that, but I'm using a breeder ration this year and the Delawares are hatching fine. Changes in feed, supplements don't seem to make any difference. And I'm in Nor Cal, so the weather has been odd but not as cold as the rest of you.

(Sorry about the weird font & bold. I cut & pasted and can't figure out how to change it.)

 

[Lacy Blues]

I think that I did this, unintentionally, back in 2009. The Sand Hill Dorkings that I introduced to my flock at that time produced all kinds of colors. I'm hoping that I've finally got that sorted out. I won't cross varieties again.
I have, over the years, combined SGDs from at least five different sources. Yet, the hatchability issues remain. So fresh blood did not help. I am looking into getting one particular line, that I'm hoping will help.

I thought that diet may be the cause. I've tried different feeds. I'm feeding a breeder ration this year and hatching two breeds. The hatch rate on the Delawares is 3 times higher than the Dorkings. So I rule out diet as the problem, or else the Delawares would also be suffering. Unless the Dorkings have some dietary need unique to the breed.

I started pedigree mating last year and keeping detailed records. I only kept the very best producing hens and the offspring from them that were closest to type. I expected better results this year, but am having both fertility and hatching problems. I am still seeing strengths in individual hens.

The chicks that hatch are very vigorous. I don't use medicated feed or immunize or baby them. If they manage to hatch, they do great.

Hoping that the strong culling & record keeping will eventually result in better hatchability.

I always hate to hear such negative banter about the Silvers. There are some breeders who have been working with them and one in particular has been doing quite well in shows this past year. For the person who wants Reds, get Reds if that's what you desire. There are nice ones out there.

I don't pretend to know anything about Dorkings but I just checked in my Chicken Health Handbook (it may not be the very best source of info, I don't know, but its what I have), at the chart on page 217 "Nutrition-Related Hatching Problems". Day 18-19 chick death is related to a Vitamin D deficiency. Day 19-21 chick death is manganese deficiency. Then there is information in the chart of the dead chick's appearance that will give possible causes.

If you have this book, its on page 217.

Fish seems to be high in Vit D. Manganese can be found in spinach, kale, cooked lima/butter beans and some fish (among other things).

I don't know how much you want to mess with their diet and whatnot. I know a lot of people figure if they can't survive on 16% commercial rations then they don't want anything to do with them. I feel that chickens, like people, have different needs. I, myself, seem to have a very high requirement for B vitamins. If you could add those things to your birds' diet, perhaps an imbalance would get taken care of and then as long as you provided those things on a less frequent basis, it might go a long way toward correcting the imbalance and the problems resulting from it.

Just a thought.

 

[pigsflyacres]

Capavalleychick, Just to be clear, I'm not disparaging SGs. I just know that they need some work. They needed work when I decided to get Reds more than 10 years ago. They haven't gotten better. I've had SGs from Sandhill. I did not have hatchability problems until I changed feed. I do think they have a need for nutrients that maybe other breeds don't. That is going to be a hassle depending on where you live and what kind of a set up you have. For any of the varieties. I'm thinking I may be running into this in my own time.

My thoughts about mixing varieties and then sorting things out was put out there as a possibility. Its a huge undertaking to then sort things out. I think Sandhill does that to a certain extent which is why their Dorkings can be a bit unexpected.

One issue I've ran into with horses is a need to feed them based on their original formation and purpose. I can't feed a Lusitano like a TB. The Welsh Cob needs to be fed differently than one of the warmbloods. The same for Dogs. Different breeds do better on different diets. Same for people. Your genes dictate what diet you will do best on. So I think maybe it might be worth it to think about nutrient issues. I don't have the book mentioned. Maybe I should!

Jennifer

 

[Lacy Blues]

Maybe you can find out from Joseph at Yellow House Farms what he feeds his Dorkings. He doesn't seem to have hatchability issues.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

I hatched all eggs large end up.

My ration contains fish meal, and for a time, I added cod liver oil, but no difference in hatch rate. Other breeders are getting excellent hatch rates with the same ration, so I think this is a Dorking-specific problem.

Kim (capayvalleychick) has tried outcrossing to different strains to improve vigor.

Joseph at Yellow House Farms has posted about the commercial formula he uses, I don't recall the brand, but it was not a brand I have ever seen offered in Texas. Last year he posted that he would like to switch from incubators to broodies, and he has not answered the pm I sent him regarding this topic. However, one of his most recent posts mentioned illness, so he may not have been on this forum lately.

BGMatt shared his "feed tag" with me, and his breeder ration has twice the lysine and methionine stated on my " feed tag"- so far, I have found fish meal, dried milk, and brewers yeast to be good sources of lysine and methionine. The milk and yeast are available on amazon, I will check with my local feed store to see if they can get either of those at a better price.

I am very open to suggestions.
Angela

 

[southernmomma]

Hello

When planning an area for a self-perpetuating flock, how many separate spaces are needed? Can I ask this question here or am I better to post in the coop section? I ask here as it seems relevant to the thread title, but is also a thread with familiar "voices".
(I'm imagining 3 spaces~ one for my hens/pullets, one as a cock/cockerel grow out pen and one as a breeding/brooding/flex space)

Thanks for any input or direction,
M

 

[Beekissed]

I'd plan for 4 spaces just in case some of that is going on all at once or you can just really good at coordinating your efforts, timing things just right. I've learned that can be difficult to do.

I've taken to growing out cockerels in the main flock until they start to breed and become a nuisance to the flock master, just to keep from having to pen them/feed them/water them separately. It seems to work out well and that's about the age I'd kill them anyway.

I also get my chicks out of the brooder ASAP, usually at 2-3 wks if the weather permits and I try not to have chicks going into cold weather (fall to winter). They also join the big flock so there doesn't have to be separate penning situations.

That leaves a separate space for a broody hen and that's easily accomplished and doesn't have to be elaborate.

Now my only problem will be breeding pens and that's the next step...but when not really interested in developing a breed and merely just breeding for meat and replacement layers, I just kept two good cocks and let them free breed.

 

[southernmomma]

I'd plan for 4 spaces just in case some of that is going on all at once or you can just really good at coordinating your efforts, timing things just right. I've learned that can be difficult to do.

I've taken to growing out cockerels in the main flock until they start to breed and become a nuisance to the flock master, just to keep from having to pen them/feed them/water them separately. It seems to work out well and that's about the age I'd kill them anyway.

I also get my chicks out of the brooder ASAP, usually at 2-3 wks if the weather permits and I try not to have chicks going into cold weather (fall to winter). They also join the big flock so there doesn't have to be separate penning situations.

That leaves a separate space for a broody hen and that's easily accomplished and doesn't have to be elaborate.

Now my only problem will be breeding pens and that's the next step...but when not really interested in developing a breed and merely just breeding for meat and replacement layers, I just kept two good cocks and let them free breed.

Thank you for your response Beekissed, I agree that 4 spaces is probably a safer solution~ my "flex" space (on paper) is big enough to be sub-divided.
Further, in my imaginings, I'd prefer to have broody hens (I really have no intention of buying an incubator) and so fully appreciate the advice re chicks~ I'd like them to have "boots on the ground" from day one and integrate into the hen flock when it seems time.
As for developing a breed versus breeding for meat I feel I might pursue both ends of the spectrum, even if for only my personal enjoyment at seeing a beautiful uniform flock that serves both my eye and my table
I'm still months away from actuation and sometimes feel foolish asking questions so far in advance but then I think at least I won't fail for lack of planning, lol!

I do admire your musings, skills and husbandry. Currently I'm enjoying the road less traveled

Cheers,
M

 

[Darkangael]

Southernmama I don't even have my birds yet but have been researching for months on it I don't think you are over planning. Things are starting to come together now though so I may actually have birds in the near future to tell me all the things I am doing wrong lol.