Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[RedRidge]

... No one I know culls deep enough and is picky enough about the genetics they perpetuate. ;-)

Gee, here I thought keeping one cockerel out of 108 eggs incubated was culling pretty deep!

Seriously, kudos to you for your commitment to quality livestock.
Best wishes,
Angela

Actually not culling deep enough is less of a problem in poultry than with other livestock. But yes it does takes hundreds to get a few keepers - especially of the breed needsa lot of improvement.

 

[RedRidge]

You're making way too many assumptions about others management style.

The biggest of which is a feed bill. We are a self sustaining, high forage converting farm. If it doesn't grow out on forage alone it doesn't stay. This is true for cattle, sheep, rabbits and poultry.

Everything is carefully timed with the seasons to see to it this is possible. And more importantly, years of heavy culling for high forage conversion and parasite resistance make this very doable - to those willing to cull deep enough, something I have a very hard time convincing other people to do.

Each variety of livestock must feed us and be totally self supportive as a bare minimum (although profit is nice).

So while I think too many assumptions were being made you hit one very big nail on the head. No one I know culls deep enough and is picky enough about the genetics they perpetuate. ;-)

 I did not make a single assumption. You are assuming that I did. If you read it again instead of assuming that I was even referring to you, you will see that I clearly and simply laid out my position on the matter. I did not describe your own. I do not even know what your position is. The only point where your contributions (and others) were included was the references to the ages of the birds. I would figure that it was acceptable to refer to those numbers, to make my own case.

 If you go back and read the post, not only will you not find your self there, you will see that I stated that the numbers were ONLY AN ILLUSTRATION and that they would debatable. Heck, the numbers I used were off the top of my head.
 Numbers do not lie. It does not matter if it costs real money, monopoly money, or clover and fescue. It is still measurable. It settles a lot of speculation.

 My view of these things is not new to this board. I share these views when the topics come up.

 My points and my position is the same, but I do not expect everyone to feel the same.

 Again, it was more about sharing how I see things. Not about how you do things. How you do things is not my business or concern, but I am sure that you do well.

Touche
As hubby likes to say, "isn't it great there is more than one way to skin a cat. Just depends if you want the skin or the meat. "

 

[RedRidge]

Dress weights for dual purpose birds.
As far as production... We just finished our annual cockerel butchering. All cockerels were either standard bred RIR or my improved Rhodebar genetics. We had a LOT due to the genetic improvement program I am working on right now. All cockerels were 6-8 months, with the majority being right at 7 months. Dress weights ranged from 5 lb 11 oz to 7 lb 4 oz. I haven't calculated the average yet, but will have that figure once they are all entered in the computer.

 

[finnfur]

Dress weights for dual purpose birds.
As far as production... We just finished our annual cockerel butchering. All cockerels were either standard bred RIR or my improved Rhodebar genetics. We had a LOT due to the genetic improvement program I am working on right now. All cockerels were 6-8 months, with the majority being right at 7 months. Dress weights ranged from 5 lb 11 oz to 7 lb 4 oz. I haven't calculated the average yet, but will have that figure once they are all entered in the computer.

Very nice looking dressed birds

 

[Lacy Blues]

I finally got caught up on all the discussion. I needed to wait because things were going on that made it "un-feasible" for me to sit down and try to keep track of the conversation. Thankfully, or not, there were not ten pages on breeding suggestions that I needed to copy and keep on file... I would have liked more... anyway, it's been a great discussion and like somebody else said, not something I've seen since Bob's passing but something that has been sorely missed.

 

[LindaB220]

I got some White Chanteclers this spring and two of them have been laying for about a month one is not laying and she is not even red in the face yet. I do not understand why.
Also My Buckeye I got from Chris Mccary are now 8 months old and the pullets are not laying yet. Is this common for them to wait for spring?

I had planned on raising some pullets to start laying for the winter. Also if the one Chantecler is not laying yet should I move her to the layer flock? I don't know if that is something she will pass on to her off spring.
Thank you, Cheryl

That's funny. Beekissed was griping about her's last winter and decided that all the expectations of early laying were going to be off for the extreme winter. And we are having one just as severe this year. My Blosl and XW white rocks are almost 8 months old and not laying. The one cockerel is not mature at all. So they are eating free for the winter. Sigh.....

 

[ronott1]

I got some White Chanteclers this spring and two of them have been laying for about a month one is not laying and she is not even red in the face yet. I do not understand why.
Also My Buckeye I got from Chris Mccary are now 8 months old and the pullets are not laying yet. Is this common for them to wait for spring?

I had planned on raising some pullets to start laying for the winter. Also if the one Chantecler is not laying yet should I move her to the layer flock? I don't know if that is something she will pass on to her off spring.
Thank you, Cheryl

Buckeye chickens are winter layers so they should lay in winter. These may be a line that does not lay much though. Check with others that have the same line.

Sadly a lot of breeders do not pay attention to production; many on this thread do pay attention. It would be fairly easy to cull for Point of Lay(POL) in hens.

If they do not start by 24 weeks old, do not breed them. Of course the best laying hens will often lose the yellow in their legs which would hurt them if shown.

To get pullets that will lay during their first winter, you need to find out how long your line takes to reach POL. Hatch them so that they reach POL in late august or Sept. If it takes 8 months for them to start, then you have to hatch them in early late December to January. I would stay away from breeds like that though.

 

[chickadoodles]

Thanks Ron and Linda. I had hope that they would be laying by now. Come spring I will cull for laying late though.

 

[Fred's Hens]

This past weekend, at the Knoxville Nationals, I spent a lot of time with Steven Gribble, sgribble, and Steven's New Hampshires were stunning. His 3rd cockerel and his second female both won big. I handled that female. Marvelous bird. But here's the deal. The K's reach a nice processing fleshing weight at 5 months and the pullets come into lay at 4.5 months.

Is this just because the New Hamp generally accomplishes this? No. The particular strain(s) that Steven is working with have been selected and pushed in that direction with success. It didn't just happen by luck of the draw nor are these species to which we can make generalized statements concerning the breed, as if all birds of a certain breed perform such and so.

Similarly, Steven was talking to me about a particular strain of another breed he works with (and wins big with). He had that same strain, but it had been kept by a different breeder. The first strain had almost been bred into sterility. When crossed back to the second keeper's strain, egg laying sprang back to life in an amazing way.

The point? It is largely about what a breeder accepts in his/her birds and what a breeder desires. We probably can not change what we have over night, but we can change what we have in time. The birds are merely products of our breeding decisions over time. We (mankind) made them and we can re-make them.


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[RedRidge]

This past weekend, at the Knoxville Nationals, I spent a lot of time with Steven Gribble, sgribble, and Steven's New Hampshires were stunning.  His 3rd cockerel and his second female both won big.  I handled that female.  Marvelous bird.  But here's the deal. The K's reach a nice processing fleshing weight at 5 months and the pullets come into lay at 4.5 months.

Is this just because the New Hamp generally accomplishes this?  No.  The particular strain(s) that Steven is working with have been selected and pushed in that direction with success.  It didn't just happen by luck of the draw nor are these species to which we can make generalized statements concerning the breed, as if all birds of a certain breed perform such and so.  

Similarly, Steven was talking to me about a particular strain of another breed he works with (and wins big with).  He had that same strain, but it had been kept by a different breeder.  The first strain had almost been bred into sterility.  When crossed back to the second keeper's strain, egg laying sprang back to life in an amazing way.

The point?  It is largely about what a breeder accepts in his/her birds and what a breeder desires.  We probably can not change what we have over night, but we can change what we have in time.  The birds are merely products of our breeding decisions over time.  We (mankind) made them and we can re-make them.  


.

Steven and I had the same exact discussion about the NH and the Reds. I was disappointed that my second choice pullet took BV when my first choice was much nicer. I discovered the first choice laid an egg, literally as the judge picked her up. Needless to say she did not show well. I teased that she should have gotten extra points for production. LOL

When I told Gary Underwood about it later that day we got into a deep discussion about form vs function and isn't it a shame the two don't meet more often. Learned a ton in that discussion - wish I'd had a tape recorder. That guy is a wealth of information. We need to keep listening to the guys who have been doing it for generations - their tidbits of wisdom are priceless.