Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[bnjrob]

I enjoy the old poultry farmer pictures from early part of the 20th century and would like to see some more if any one has any handy. I'll bet the stock was not very standard, but Maybe more productive than you think. These breeds have been ignored for a long time. Will a new group of breeders emerge that emphasize productive standard bred poultry? What's the definition of standard bred? Obviously, the commercial hatcheries are not concerned about this. LOL. If a chicken would not get disqualified at a show is that good enough to claim the standard bred label?

Now that is an interesting thought! Maybe it's like the word *heritage* and different groups use it to mean different things.

 

[Regin]

I enjoy the old poultry farmer pictures from early part of the 20th century and would like to see some more if any one has any handy. I'll bet the stock was not very standard, but Maybe more productive than you think. These breeds have been ignored for a long time. Will a new group of breeders emerge that emphasize productive standard bred poultry? What's the definition of standard bred? Obviously, the commercial hatcheries are not concerned about this. LOL. If a chicken would not get disqualified at a show is that good enough to claim the standard bred label?

There are some breeders that do just that.
I chose the source for my Buckeyes stock based on the breeders emphasis on production as well as the standard. My Buckeye pullets are laying pretty well.




I also have Bresse. Although new to the USA, the Bresse have been 'Improved' in France for about 500 years!
Traditionally a meat chicken, these girls put out some very pretty and large eggs. No USA / APA standard exists.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Breeding makes more and more sense the longer one breeds with commitment to a specific variety of a specific breed with specific criteria.

There are some influential, internet poultry folks that like to spin yarns, and that's cool; it fuels the imagination. Nevertheless, at times the yarns spin off into an alternative reality.

"Dual-purpose" is not a specific measure; it is a spectrum with a lot of variation.

There are many, many different records, from university experiment stations and governmental programs, that establish a fairly clear historical understanding of poultry development over time. Knowledge of breeding poultry for production catapulted forward starting in the early/mid 20th century. Before that there was very little of improving anything that wasn't sheer luck and the accumulation of anecdotal understanding, some of which was spot on, and some of which was completely incorrect--sometime efficacious in spite of ignorance.

Reading fantasy into history is rather fun, the largest market in current literature proves that; however, if our goal is to understand poultry evolution, a lot of that history needs to be taken with a grain of salt; e.g. la poule de Bresse is comes from the region south of where I used to live in France. They are very proud of their chicken, but that phenomenon is rather recent historically. La Fleche and Houdans are much important historically, although it is true that the Bresse has surpassed them in importance currently. It's not because of anything historically interesting with the Bresse fowl; it's rather an expression of modern poultry science being applied well in a region with farmers that chose to do so. They're cool, but their certainly no more chique than a NH, and I'd argue much less beautiful and much less refined.

Excellent producers, in a current sense, are specialized producers; the produce meat or they produce eggs to an excellent degree. They don't produce both, and in the time of the true "dual-purpose" fowl expected less of their fowl that we do today when we say production.

 

[Beekissed]

Is this a White Rock project ? Or something new you are taking on ?

It's the WR project. Of course, now it's a new thing to me as I'm dealing with heirloom lines but not so knew to me as a breed.

Just keep in mind that there is one potential "fallacy" in using the Hogan method....ALL of the hens need to be in the same "state of laying" in order for the method to work. People who've used this method on hens that were "out of production" reported discarding as poor layers what turned out to be really good laying hens. Per studies conducted at Cornell University, "...When the system was applied to a flock of birds toward the close of the laying season it was successful in detecting the best layers because these would be the only hens laying late int he fall; they would be the late molting, persistent layers."

I can't speak from direct experience and in no way want to disparage Walter Hogan for the amazing work he did in helping people improve the overall production levels of their flock, but I also don't want anyone to go into using this process without knowing the potential pitfalls lest they be disappointed. I'm only sharing what I've found in my research. I hope to also use this method once my flock has reached maturity and progressed through their laying years and actually plan to "test" the limitations of the method first-hand to either corroborate or refute the finding of other researchers.

And if you're interested in researching of what I've said yourself, you can find the review I quoted in the book, "Judging Poultry for Production" by James E. Rice. This book and "The Call of the Hand" are my primary go-to books for determining my breeder selections for flock vitality and production.

I finished the book this weekend and he addresses that in the book, so if folks are reading it carefully, he explains all of that. His method is definitely an improvement on my old method, which is pretty random if compared to this precise and year's long study done by Hogan. And, it's definitely better than having no methodology at all and just breeding good looking birds to good looking birds and hoping that I'll get some good looking birds....which leaves out all the other important things like production, fertility, good mothering skills, longevity, vigor, etc. that I find to be more important than just a good looking flock.

And, like you, it intrigues me....I like it when folks do hands on experiments, document it, give it the test of time and even have it corroborated by other people well known in the poultry field, as is described in this book. I understand there are variables, but that's the same with any experiment and a person just has to allow for those variables. Either way, it's a better and more well tested technique than I've ever used or seen described on this site or any other thus far.

 

[RedRidge]

Breeding makes more and more sense the longer one breeds with commitment to a specific variety of a specific breed with specific criteria.

There are some influential, internet poultry folks that like to spin yarns, and that's cool; it fuels the imagination. Nevertheless, at times the yarns spin off into an alternative reality.

"Dual-purpose" is not a specific measure; it is a spectrum with a lot of variation.

There are many, many different records, from university experiment stations and governmental programs, that establish a fairly clear historical understanding of poultry development over time. Knowledge of breeding poultry for production catapulted forward starting in the early/mid 20th century. Before that there was very little of improving anything that wasn't sheer luck and the accumulation of anecdotal understanding, some of which was spot on, and some of which was completely incorrect--sometime efficacious in spite of ignorance.

Reading fantasy into history is rather fun, the largest market in current literature proves that; however, if our goal is to understand poultry evolution, a lot of that history needs to be taken with a grain of salt; e.g. la poule de Bresse is comes from the region south of where I used to live in France. They are very proud of their chicken, but that phenomenon is rather recent historically. La Fleche and Houdans are much important historically, although it is true that the Bresse has surpassed them in importance currently. It's not because of anything historically interesting with the Bresse fowl; it's rather an expression of modern poultry science being applied well in a region with farmers that chose to do so. They're cool, but their certainly no more chique than a NH, and I'd argue much less beautiful and much less refined.

Excellent producers, in a current sense, are specialized producers; the produce meat or they produce eggs to an excellent degree. They don't produce both, and in the time of the true "dual-purpose" fowl expected less of their fowl that we do today when we say production.

Agreed, but... it is still a goal, and a good goal to have. Just because a dual purpose bird will never produce the number of eggs a production layer will, while at the same time growing meat as fast as a Cornish cross, doesn't mean that striving for dual purpose traits shouldn't be an important goal. And yes, an attainable one.
It is a huge goal of ours here and one that had become quite attainable for our purposes with a variety of livestock. It's necessary to look at the big picture and realize that dual or multi purpose can be extremely profitable compared to raising two separate breeds. It takes time, years of breeding to your own management style, to develop those genetics. But while those genetics may not fit well with someone else's management techniques, if properly culled and managed they become priceless to the developer.

 

[TeaChick]

@Beekissed , all the best to you in your breeding plans! Looking forward to reading how you're doing with them. =)
How are you in general?

 

[Beekissed]

@Beekissed , all the best to you in your breeding plans! Looking forward to reading how you're doing with them. =)
How are you in general?

Can't complain!

God has been good to me and the blessings just keep flowin'! Will definitely post results of anything that happens with this that I find remarkable, as I love a good experiment.

How are you?

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Agreed, but... it is still a goal, and a good goal to have. Just because a dual purpose bird will never produce the number of eggs a production layer will, while at the same time growing meat as fast as a Cornish cross, doesn't mean that striving for dual purpose traits shouldn't be an important goal. And yes, an attainable one.
It is a huge goal of ours here and one that had become quite attainable for our purposes with a variety of livestock. It's necessary to look at the big picture and realize that dual or multi purpose can be extremely profitable compared to raising two separate breeds. It takes time, years of breeding to your own management style, to develop those genetics. But while those genetics may not fit well with someone else's management techniques, if properly culled and managed they become priceless to the developer.

Absolutely, and working with Rhode Island Reds, you have one of the breeds that comes the closest to marrying them both.

 

[mcknightdave]

Hello!
I have been looking for a group like this for a few months now.
I have just started hatching my own RIR. I am running them on pasture with my cattle.
Looking forward to meeting others with the same goals.
Have questions about what characteristics to select for when hatching your own and what genetics I should be looking for with future roosters.
I am in NW MO.

 

[Beekissed]

Dave, what are your primary goals with your RIR? Eggs, eggs and meat, breeding to a standard to improve the breed while also having eggs and meat, etc. If we can find that out, I'm sure some of the RIR breeders here can give you an insight as to what you should be looking for in genetics for those goals.