Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[mcknightdave]

Dave, what are your primary goals with your RIR? Eggs, eggs and meat, breeding to a standard to improve the breed while also having eggs and meat, etc.  If we can find that out, I'm sure some of the RIR breeders here can give you an insight as to what you should be looking for in genetics for those goals. 

Thank you for your response.
I want to try putting my chickens in pasture rotation behind my cattle to control insects. Scratching apart manure piles and eating fly larva, etc.
defininately interested in the eggs over meat.
My interest in sticking with the RIR, is hopefully provide value to the breed and others with similar goals. I will be in need of roosters in the future and would prefer to buy some locally from someone with similar goals.
I have had chickens for a couple years now, first three groups didn't last long due to predators and they were just lacking in any survival instincts.
My last set of chicks came from a different hatchery and they have survived must better and seem better suited to life on pasture.
Buying an incubator and hatching my own chicks really has me excited about trying to develop a good working chicken.
I suppose it doesn't have to be RIR, that is just what I have and I have been happy with them.

 

[RedRidge]

Dave, what are your primary goals with your RIR? Eggs, eggs and meat, breeding to a standard to improve the breed while also having eggs and meat, etc.  If we can find that out, I'm sure some of the RIR breeders here can give you an insight as to what you should be looking for in genetics for those goals. 

Thank you for your response.
I want to try putting my chickens in pasture rotation behind my cattle to control insects. Scratching apart manure piles and eating fly larva, etc.
defininately interested in the eggs over meat.
My interest in sticking with the RIR, is hopefully provide value to the breed and others with similar goals. I will be in need of roosters in the future and would prefer to buy some locally from someone with similar goals.
I have had chickens for a couple years now, first three groups didn't last long due to predators and they were just lacking in any survival instincts.
My last set of chicks came from a different hatchery and they have survived must better and seem better suited to life on pasture.
Buying an incubator and hatching my own chicks really has me excited about trying to develop a good working chicken.
I suppose it doesn't have to be RIR, that is just what I have and I have been happy with them.

We rotationally graze our RIR behind cattle and sheep. I have 2 breeds and is easier to rotate the Reds because they simply do not challenge the netting. We use Kencove poultry netting for cross fence rotation for all the livestock, and Italian maremma for predation prevention. I've tried other types of electro netting ands other types of guardians, but this combination has worked well for us for years. Good luck to you. It's a great breed.

 

[NanaKat]

There is a really nice article featuring Joel Salatin in the February 2015 issue of The Progressive Farmer magazine pages 30 to 33 describing how the organic farm has grown over the years. Salatin offers advice to young farmers wanting to get into the business of producing and selling organic farm products....and of course the chickens are part of the story.

 

[Beekissed]

I used to be a real diehard Salatin fan, read all his books and tried many of his methods on livestock....then took a tour of his place. I wouldn't put much stock in anything he has to say about chickens.

His live in pretty bad conditions and are not healthy looking at all, so I'd just take his pasture advice and some of the bits about larger livestock and use them, but the man don't know ding diddly dang about how to do chickens, IMO. He's all about the money and not a bit about their health and natural life.

 

[finnfur]

I used to be a real diehard Salatin fan, read all his books and tried many of his methods on livestock....then took a tour of his place. I wouldn't put much stock in anything he has to say about chickens.

His live in pretty bad conditions and are not healthy looking at all, so I'd just take his pasture advice and some of the bits about larger livestock and use them, but the man don't know ding diddly dang about how to do chickens, IMO. He's all about the money and not a bit about their health and natural life.

I heard that! and I have heard it several times before.

 

[gootziecat]

I used to be a real diehard Salatin fan, read all his books and tried many of his methods on livestock....then took a tour of his place. I wouldn't put much stock in anything he has to say about chickens.

His live in pretty bad conditions and are not healthy looking at all, so I'd just take his pasture advice and some of the bits about larger livestock and use them, but the man don't know ding diddly dang about how to do chickens, IMO. He's all about the money and not a bit about their health and natural life.

I love your honesty and candor.

 

[gjensen]

I enjoy the old poultry farmer pictures from early part of the 20th century and would like to see some more if any one has any handy. I'll bet the stock was not very standard, but Maybe more productive than you think. These breeds have been ignored for a long time. Will a new group of breeders emerge that emphasize productive standard bred poultry? What's the definition of standard bred? Obviously, the commercial hatcheries are not concerned about this. LOL. If a chicken would not get disqualified at a show is that good enough to claim the standard bred label?

Some will. Many like the idea of it, but are not sincerely interested in learning to breed productive birds that represent the breed well. That is what I would like to see. People learning to breed good birds, and learning what a good bird is.

I am a sucker for the nostalgia to, but no matter the time and place, a good bird is a good bird. A vigorous healthy flock of good type and color that is genetically sound, and is still relatively productive, is worth something. They are both a pleasure to look at, and a joy to own.

 

[gjensen]

I used to be a real diehard Salatin fan, read all his books and tried many of his methods on livestock....then took a tour of his place. I wouldn't put much stock in anything he has to say about chickens.

His live in pretty bad conditions and are not healthy looking at all, so I'd just take his pasture advice and some of the bits about larger livestock and use them, but the man don't know ding diddly dang about how to do chickens, IMO. He's all about the money and not a bit about their health and natural life.

Yes. He is another poultry producer. He feeds purchased birds on grass rather than on litter. He sells and promotes an idea. I am not putting him down, but there is more to poultry than feeding broilers purchased from a hatchery. Any beginner in poultry can buy chicks, pack them in a wire pen, move them regularly, keep them fed and watered, and process them when the time comes. I am not impressed.

 

[gjensen]

Thank you for your response.
I want to try putting my chickens in pasture rotation behind my cattle to control insects. Scratching apart manure piles and eating fly larva, etc.
defininately interested in the eggs over meat.
My interest in sticking with the RIR, is hopefully provide value to the breed and others with similar goals. I will be in need of roosters in the future and would prefer to buy some locally from someone with similar goals.
I have had chickens for a couple years now, first three groups didn't last long due to predators and they were just lacking in any survival instincts.
My last set of chicks came from a different hatchery and they have survived must better and seem better suited to life on pasture.
Buying an incubator and hatching my own chicks really has me excited about trying to develop a good working chicken.
I suppose it doesn't have to be RIR, that is just what I have and I have been happy with them.

Everything likes to eat chicken, and they do not care what breed it is. Redridge's emphasis on protection from predators was spot on.

 

[gjensen]

That's what we've done thus far. Size has been too small for a long time in Javas, so we've been working on choosing larger birds that also have larger capacity measurements. The crummy thing is, they are not as good of layers as our smaller, pinched tailed hens. Drives me crazy trying to figure out why the smaller, pinched tailed, poorly typed hens lay better than the larger hens with a wider pelvis.

Honestly, a chicken that lays every other day or every couple of days is fine for us and our better typed birds do that. A handful of hens gives us way more eggs than we need unless we're hatching. If production could be improved more than that though, it would take even less hens to meet someone's needs, making Javas more popular with people. It's hard to get people's mindsets away from the supersized, superfast mentality, so if Javas could be a little more competitive with production, we might get more folks interested in keeping them so they don't come so close to dying out. Then too, they were once touted as *excellent* layers. But without a frame of reference as to how many eggs they considered as *excellent*, it is hard to know if we are already at the max capacity of what Javas laid in their heyday, or if they have fallen way far down in production since then.

As you have observed, type (capacity) is only part of it. The characters that define a good solid layer are many. It is a compilation of characteristics, or traits. There is not a single selection point, but many points of selection.

I think the Java could fill a role for some. Some prefer a more primitive method of management. Their weaknesses could be a strength in the right setting. Everything good comes at a cost. There is no way around that.

Are they broody and make good mothers? I would want an older breed like the Java to be more "self sustaining". I would not be concerned with the rates the cockerels filled out, if they grew strongly in a lower input setting. I would only be concerned with POL as it required pullets to come into lay as the hens began to molt etc. Rate of lay would not be a major concern, providing they were not seasonal layers. I would emphasize length of lay, and an ability to lay in lower light settings.

I am reluctant to use the word natural, because there is nothing "natural" about domesticated birds in captivity. However, I would enjoy a flock of Javas in a more "natural" setting. I would raise and select them in a different setting than my NHs. I would want them to be different birds. The breeds that came later were more productive, but they also required more. The good came at a cost.

I am not suggesting anything. I am trying to share a perspective. A perspective that says that different breeds can have different roles. And not for you, but for others. I am sure there is much to be said for the breed. I think there is still a place for the older breeds that are neglected. I have an interest in them, if for no other reason than no-one else is raising them. Newcomers should be as drawn to the old and rare breeds that we have, as the latest import. The only difference is promotion, and what everyone else is drawn to.

I think the history and contributions from the Java make them interesting and worth keeping around. It would be neat to see more interest in learning to breed good Javas.

I would like to see a flock of well bred Javas in my area.