Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[gjensen]

That's what is bothering me - the idea that ANY hen has to be small in order to be a good layer. I have not yet decided if that is one of those observations that were made that really had some validity across all breeds, or if it was just a strong opinion but only factual in very specific situations. Sometimes those old books have stuff that sounds like old wive's tales that turn out to be true and other times the stuff is way off base. But you still have to weed through things and see if it applies to your flock.

Our breed is large, over 5 lbs for females. We have differences in individuals as well as in groups depending on where we obtained them from. We have one group that we know was pushed for egg production. More of them lay every day with great consistency than any of our other groups. However these guys that lay better are too small for their standard and smaller than the other groups by comparison. They also have a number of other breed standard flaws too. We will not even sell culls because they are too far from the standard and I don't want someone backyard breeding them thinking that they are good representations of their breed.

So I'm not sure if the small size on them is what really helped them be better layers than the others, or if it is just coincidental that they turned out to be small. One of those things to make you go hmmmmmm.

That implication would not be accurate necessarily. There is a correlation on some level, but all links are not links of necessity. Links can be made, and links can be broken. Feed efficiency is the largest advantage that smaller breeds have concerning laying. The larger breeds often did as well during laying trials, but were left behind because they ate more feed. It is true that laying strains tended to be lighter in weight. Then, they were not selected for anything else.

Hogan saw a connection between breed size, metabolism, and lay rate.

Hogan had a lot of brilliant ideas, but we have learned a lot about production genetics since then. There are main points that may be useful for us today. It is in reality, more of a culling method than a breeding method. Breeders should be proven by their performance, and by the performance of their offspring.

 

[bnjrob]

As you have observed, type (capacity) is only part of it. The characters that define a good solid layer are many. It is a compilation of characteristics, or traits. There is not a single selection point, but many points of selection.

I think the Java could fill a role for some. Some prefer a more primitive method of management. Their weaknesses could be a strength in the right setting. Everything good comes at a cost. There is no way around that.

Are they broody and make good mothers? I would want an older breed like the Java to be more "self sustaining". I would not be concerned with the rates the cockerels filled out, if they grew strongly in a lower input setting. I would only be concerned with POL as it required pullets to come into lay as the hens began to molt etc. Rate of lay would not be a major concern, providing they were not seasonal layers. I would emphasize length of lay, and an ability to lay in lower light settings.

I am reluctant to use the word natural, because there is nothing "natural" about domesticated birds in captivity. However, I would enjoy a flock of Javas in a more "natural" setting. I would raise and select them in a different setting than my NHs. I would want them to be different birds. The breeds that came later were more productive, but they also required more. The good came at a cost.

I am not suggesting anything. I am trying to share a perspective. A perspective that says that different breeds can have different roles. And not for you, but for others. I am sure there is much to be said for the breed. I think there is still a place for the older breeds that are neglected. I have an interest in them, if for no other reason than no-one else is raising them. Newcomers should be as drawn to the old and rare breeds that we have, as the latest import. The only difference is promotion, and what everyone else is drawn to.

I think the history and contributions from the Java make them interesting and worth keeping around. It would be neat to see more interest in learning to breed good Javas.

I would like to see a flock of well bred Javas in my area.

A number of Java keepers have related to me that their Javas are pretty broody. Ours go broody so often that last year I was not able to hatch as many birds as I desired, and I don't like hatching in summer heat. It is a trait that I plan on encouraging though, as our goal is to have good farm birds that can hatch and raise their own young. Thus far I have incubated and hatched as a means to get more birds on the ground faster but will love the day when the chickens will do their own hatching.

Our pullets tend to start laying around 6 months with some a few weeks earlier and some a little later. No real complaints on POL for the pullets. Pullets usually are laying in winter and some of the hens lay in winter also. Had a problem with pullets molting this winter - their first winter - just before their first birthday in December. But they have started laying again this past week once we got more days with less cloudcover. Supposedly Javas were excellent winter layers, and most people that raised them were in the northern states, so I'm hoping that we may be able to get more hens laying in winter as we go on and not just the pullets.

I finally got around to finishing up the carcasses of the roosters we butchered last week. Half were year old cocks and half were 5 month old cockerels. The cockerels all weighed 4 - 4.5 lbs dressed, so not too bad. The cocks were all around 5 lbs dressed and they were the runtier ones in the group - just had never gotten around to butchering them sooner. The cockerels I put in the freezer whole, the cocks I cut the meat off the bones raw - got 2-2.5 lbs of raw meat per carcass without getting every single bit of meat off the bones. And I'll use the carcasses and the remaining meat bits to make and can chicken stock, so nothing will go to waste.

This year we're looking at turning our food-egg flock - the hens unworthy of breeding - into a free range flock. So we'll be able to compare what they do with the breeder hens that only are allowed to free range with supervision. If we can keep the predators from getting them all, I anticipate that they will do well. They love to forage and will even fly in order to scare grasshoppers up out of the grass when they land. We don't keep any other breed, so I can't compare them to another breed, but we've been very happy with them and I think they will continue to do well as we forge ahead in how we do things so that we can become more self-sufficient in our lifestyle.

Now to get more people interested in keeping them so they don't get so close to becoming extinct again.

 

[gjensen]

A number of Java keepers have related to me that their Javas are pretty broody. Ours go broody so often that last year I was not able to hatch as many birds as I desired, and I don't like hatching in summer heat. It is a trait that I plan on encouraging though, as our goal is to have good farm birds that can hatch and raise their own young. Thus far I have incubated and hatched as a means to get more birds on the ground faster but will love the day when the chickens will do their own hatching.

Our pullets tend to start laying around 6 months with some a few weeks earlier and some a little later. No real complaints on POL for the pullets. Pullets usually are laying in winter and some of the hens lay in winter also. Had a problem with pullets molting this winter - their first winter - just before their first birthday in December. But they have started laying again this past week once we got more days with less cloudcover. Supposedly Javas were excellent winter layers, and most people that raised them were in the northern states, so I'm hoping that we may be able to get more hens laying in winter as we go on and not just the pullets.

I finally got around to finishing up the carcasses of the roosters we butchered last week. Half were year old cocks and half were 5 month old cockerels. The cockerels all weighed 4 - 4.5 lbs dressed, so not too bad. The cocks were all around 5 lbs dressed and they were the runtier ones in the group - just had never gotten around to butchering them sooner. The cockerels I put in the freezer whole, the cocks I cut the meat off the bones raw - got 2-2.5 lbs of raw meat per carcass without getting every single bit of meat off the bones. And I'll use the carcasses and the remaining meat bits to make and can chicken stock, so nothing will go to waste.

This year we're looking at turning our food-egg flock - the hens unworthy of breeding - into a free range flock. So we'll be able to compare what they do with the breeder hens that only are allowed to free range with supervision. If we can keep the predators from getting them all, I anticipate that they will do well. They love to forage and will even fly in order to scare grasshoppers up out of the grass when they land. We don't keep any other breed, so I can't compare them to another breed, but we've been very happy with them and I think they will continue to do well as we forge ahead in how we do things so that we can become more self-sufficient in our lifestyle.

Now to get more people interested in keeping them so they don't get so close to becoming extinct again.

They sound like they do well. The 6 month POL is better than many these days. Ironic.

I have a problem with pullets winter molting with my Catalanas. If I hatch them too early. They are pretty quick to mature sexually. I hatched them later this year, and did not have the problem. I will try them two weeks earlier this year than last, and see how they do. Winter molting pullets drive me crazy. I do not want a pullet to molt.

Are you breeding mottled Java?

How many eggs do the pullets lay? How broody are the pullets? Broody can be a strength and weakness it seams. I was surprised to have Catalanas go broody. I was excited about that. It seams that about a third will. They will not if the eggs are collected promptly, but if they are given a good spot to do it, and an egg or two is left behind . . . The ones I let sit, made good mothers. I do not know how well this trait would be preserved moving forward.

Java need what many breeds do. Dedicated and skilled breeders.

 

[bnjrob]

They sound like they do well. The 6 month POL is better than many these days. Ironic.

I have a problem with pullets winter molting with my Catalanas. If I hatch them too early. They are pretty quick to mature sexually. I hatched them later this year, and did not have the problem. I will try them two weeks earlier this year than last, and see how they do. Winter molting pullets drive me crazy. I do not want a pullet to molt.

Are you breeding mottled Java?

How many eggs do the pullets lay? How broody are the pullets? Broody can be a strength and weakness it seams. I was surprised to have Catalanas go broody. I was excited about that. It seams that about a third will. They will not if the eggs are collected promptly, but if they are given a good spot to do it, and an egg or two is left behind . . . The ones I let sit, made good mothers. I do not know how well this trait would be preserved moving forward.

Java need what many breeds do. Dedicated and skilled breeders.

Had never had a problem with a pullet molting the first winter before, but if I hatch so early again and have them molt again their first year, then I'll just give up the winter hatching altogether. Didn't hatch in winter this year since the older hens were not laying as much and have been trying to avoid hatching from hens less than a couple of years old, but I may go ahead and hatch from some 1 year old birds this year.

We concentrate on Mottleds, although we do have some Blacks and some non-standard colored Javas. We've got two Mottled bloodlines, including the McGraw line birds that Bob Blosl had stumbled upon and rescued. The person Bob sent the Javas to decided keeping chickens was not for them, so now we have what is left of them and are trying to build up the numbers of that strain since it is so much more rare than the Urch birds.

Altogether we have around 70 Javas right now. I'd like to work on Blacks at some point and also get some of the few Whites that I hear are still around. The Blacks we obtained are going to need new blood to fix their flaws, which include some DQ type flaws. We've hatched from them and found the type, tail angle, and foot color flaws are just too ingrained in the offspring. I don't let any of the Blacks or our non-standard colored Javas leave our property - don't want someone to try breeding them and passing them off as good representations of a Java.

This is the first year that I'm actually keeping written record of how many eggs are laid in each house. Since they're kept in small groups, I've always just kept track mentally of how many eggs were collected in the houses each day and how many pullets or hens were in each house. So I've known if laying had slacked off or not and what the average days between laying was, but not the actual egg numbers over the course of a year. Have trapnest fronts that I could use to get even more solid numbers of eggs per bird, but that requires frequent visits to the pasture and since it's hot so much of the time here, I have not gotten taken that route yet.

The pullets don't go broody as often, but once they become hens, more start being broody. Lost good hens over the last couple of summers from going broody in the heat and refusing to drink enough. Yes, having eggs that sit a while does seem to prompt the broodiness in our Javas too. Have had to take fake eggs out of nests that I was using to get the younger females to lay in the nest boxes, because it prompted broodiness too often.

Yes, Javas need some good stewards. I'm dedicated to them but not sure how skilled I am some days. Have learned a lot and still have more to learn. Never ending cycle of learning and observing.

 

[gjensen]

Had never had a problem with a pullet molting the first winter before, but if I hatch so early again and have them molt again their first year, then I'll just give up the winter hatching altogether. Didn't hatch in winter this year since the older hens were not laying as much and have been trying to avoid hatching from hens less than a couple of years old, but I may go ahead and hatch from some 1 year old birds this year.

We concentrate on Mottleds, although we do have some Blacks and some non-standard colored Javas. We've got two Mottled bloodlines, including the McGraw line birds that Bob Blosl had stumbled upon and rescued. The person Bob sent the Javas to decided keeping chickens was not for them, so now we have what is left of them and are trying to build up the numbers of that strain since it is so much more rare than the Urch birds.

Altogether we have around 70 Javas right now. I'd like to work on Blacks at some point and also get some of the few Whites that I hear are still around. The Blacks we obtained are going to need new blood to fix their flaws, which include some DQ type flaws. We've hatched from them and found the type, tail angle, and foot color flaws are just too ingrained in the offspring. I don't let any of the Blacks or our non-standard colored Javas leave our property - don't want someone to try breeding them and passing them off as good representations of a Java.

This is the first year that I'm actually keeping written record of how many eggs are laid in each house. Since they're kept in small groups, I've always just kept track mentally of how many eggs were collected in the houses each day and how many pullets or hens were in each house. So I've known if laying had slacked off or not and what the average days between laying was, but not the actual egg numbers over the course of a year. Have trapnest fronts that I could use to get even more solid numbers of eggs per bird, but that requires frequent visits to the pasture and since it's hot so much of the time here, I have not gotten taken that route yet.

The pullets don't go broody as often, but once they become hens, more start being broody. Lost good hens over the last couple of summers from going broody in the heat and refusing to drink enough. Yes, having eggs that sit a while does seem to prompt the broodiness in our Javas too. Have had to take fake eggs out of nests that I was using to get the younger females to lay in the nest boxes, because it prompted broodiness too often.

Yes, Javas need some good stewards. I'm dedicated to them but not sure how skilled I am some days. Have learned a lot and still have more to learn. Never ending cycle of learning and observing.

I picked up my Catalanas in early winter, and started hatching from them within two weeks. All of the early hatched birds molted their first winter, and none of the late hatched birds. The following year I did not hatch as early, but had some that did and did not. Last year I hatched April 18th, and none molted. I want them to have a couple more weeks of laying time so that their egg size is up before the earliest hens molt. I want all of them them laying 2oz eggs by then. So . . . .this year I am shooting for the week before and after April 1st. I will have a few earlier and later. I am referring to the large main hatches for reference. I like the NHs the week before and after March 1st.
I like hatching a little later than some do. I enjoy flowing with the seasons, and the birds are not kept on artificial heat as long.

70 birds is a lot in one breed. Not many, if any keep that many in one breed all year long. I have 27 Catalanas. I do have a modified grading project, but I do not count them. I only hope to use them as an outcross at some point. I am not even absolutely certain they will ever be used. I have a question on how something will be inherited along the way. This project will be a teacher at the least. It has already taught me a couple things about this color.

Small groups is a good way to track eggs. I get a good idea, and I can identify (to remove) the poorest layers. I absolutely will not keep a poor layer, no matter how much I like her. I killed the best NH hen that I ever raised. I loved her, but she had some issue or another. She rarely laid an egg. I was reading some say that the hen that still had the bloom of a pullet was special. I thought to myself that would be true if she laid as well as her sisters.
Occasionally, I can identify the best layer. Every now and then one is head and shoulders above the rest in all respects.

I do not have trap nests. I have considered using them for the breeding season alone. It would save me some trouble. I would not have to split them up as much and still be able to mark the eggs. I am not certain that I can do that, but I have considered it. If I had them in place as you do, I would trial it. The bulk of my eggs are only collected over two weeks for hatching.

I believe in using hens that have fully went through their first laying cycle, or at least emphasizing those that did well. I am not absolutely religious about it. I will be using some as 1 year old hens, and I will try to get two generations out of the project birds before next spring. I am certain that if this flock was more firmly established, I would more strictly adhere to this ideal. It is best, and only requires patience, but there are times that it might be best to do otherwise. By one year, I can generally (not absolutely) predict who is who.

I am only interested in one strain here, and I am not loyal to strains. I want to build my own. I am only loyal to the breed. I considered doing otherwise, but it would have forced me to settle with what I had. I could wallow in mediocrity, or I could try to build something. I have chosen to try to realize them as they could be, rather than accept them as they are. I am no purist. The only credit that will be able to be given to a strain is that it could be considered the foundation. Now I may fall on my face, but I am cautious. I will preserve what I have along the way. I would see it differently, if and only if, the strain was in excellent shape. Then I would have no interest in dabbling around. That would not make any sense. That would be stupid. What I am referring to is in bad shape.

You will do fine. You are obviously committed, and you enjoy them. I am not skilled either, but I continue to enjoy trying to be. I admire those that do well with a breed for a long time, and you can see it in their birds. I am no where near that yet.
The fun is in the trying to get there. I do not understand why more do not want to.

 

[bnjrob]

I picked up my Catalanas in early winter, and started hatching from them within two weeks. All of the early hatched birds molted their first winter, and none of the late hatched birds. The following year I did not hatch as early, but had some that did and did not. Last year I hatched April 18th, and none molted. I want them to have a couple more weeks of laying time so that their egg size is up before the earliest hens molt. I want all of them them laying 2oz eggs by then. So . . . .this year I am shooting for the week before and after April 1st. I will have a few earlier and later. I am referring to the large main hatches for reference. I like the NHs the week before and after March 1st.
I like hatching a little later than some do. I enjoy flowing with the seasons, and the birds are not kept on artificial heat as long.

70 birds is a lot in one breed. Not many, if any keep that many in one breed all year long. I have 27 Catalanas. I do have a modified grading project, but I do not count them. I only hope to use them as an outcross at some point. I am not even absolutely certain they will ever be used. I have a question on how something will be inherited along the way. This project will be a teacher at the least. It has already taught me a couple things about this color.

Small groups is a good way to track eggs. I get a good idea, and I can identify (to remove) the poorest layers. I absolutely will not keep a poor layer, no matter how much I like her. I killed the best NH hen that I ever raised. I loved her, but she had some issue or another. She rarely laid an egg. I was reading some say that the hen that still had the bloom of a pullet was special. I thought to myself that would be true if she laid as well as her sisters.
Occasionally, I can identify the best layer. Every now and then one is head and shoulders above the rest in all respects.

I do not have trap nests. I have considered using them for the breeding season alone. It would save me some trouble. I would not have to split them up as much and still be able to mark the eggs. I am not certain that I can do that, but I have considered it. If I had them in place as you do, I would trial it. The bulk of my eggs are only collected over two weeks for hatching.

I believe in using hens that have fully went through their first laying cycle, or at least emphasizing those that did well. I am not absolutely religious about it. I will be using some as 1 year old hens, and I will try to get two generations out of the project birds before next spring. I am certain that if this flock was more firmly established, I would more strictly adhere to this ideal. It is best, and only requires patience, but there are times that it might be best to do otherwise. By one year, I can generally (not absolutely) predict who is who.

I am only interested in one strain here, and I am not loyal to strains. I want to build my own. I am only loyal to the breed. I considered doing otherwise, but it would have forced me to settle with what I had. I could wallow in mediocrity, or I could try to build something. I have chosen to try to realize them as they could be, rather than accept them as they are. I am no purist. The only credit that will be able to be given to a strain is that it could be considered the foundation. Now I may fall on my face, but I am cautious. I will preserve what I have along the way. I would see it differently, if and only if, the strain was in excellent shape. Then I would have no interest in dabbling around. That would not make any sense. That would be stupid. What I am referring to is in bad shape.

You will do fine. You are obviously committed, and you enjoy them. I am not skilled either, but I continue to enjoy trying to be. I admire those that do well with a breed for a long time, and you can see it in their birds. I am no where near that yet.
The fun is in the trying to get there. I do not understand why more do not want to.

LOL, yes, 70 birds does seem like a lot for having just one breed. Having different colors and bloodlines is part of why so many, and the other reason is to make sure to have backups in case of any losses. Just too difficult to get replacement birds. There's probably about 20 hens that are not suitable for breeding that make up our food-egg flock, and we still need to cull more of last year's hatched males. Every time we set a day to cull and butcher, we've had to postpone it, but just butchering the obvious rooster culls last week has already decreased feed consumption a good bit. One acquaintance with Javas had some devastating predator losses last year and is basically starting all over again with chicks this year. As long as we can afford to keep them, I'd rather keep extras than risk a serious loss like that.


If there were more strains of Javas out there that had their roots farther back than the last 10 years, I probably would not worry about keeping separate bloodlines. But there are only a handful of flocks that date back to the mid-20th century, with the majority of today's Javas hailing at some point from the same source, so I decided to keep the lines separated. That way I can make comparisons of the different groups, since there has not been much new info on Javas to review. Most recently written articles just regurgitate what was written 100+ years ago.

I think it is easier to adhere to a stricter rule of only breeding older birds when you have gone farther along in your breeding program and have more birds that you've been able to choose from, and you've had more time to see the results of your breeding choices. But then sometimes a younger bird is so impressive that it may be better to go ahead and breed them, just in case they become some predator's lunch later on before you had a chance to get any offspring from them.

 

[RedRidge]

I don't even want to count the number of chickens I have right now between my two breeds. :-0
Because one of my breeds is so awful, let's just say the numbers are in the many hundreds. ;-)
While I only over winter a handful of quality birds(several dozen) from a breed that needs as much maintaining as improving, a breed in need requires lots of genetics, many generations, and backups to assure your work of several years doesn't get last in an emergency.

 

[bnjrob]

I don't even want to count the number of chickens I have right now between my two breeds. :-0
Because one of my breeds is so awful, let's just say the numbers are in the many hundreds. ;-)
While I only over winter a handful of quality birds(several dozen) from a breed that needs as much maintaining as improving, a breed in need requires lots of genetics, many generations, and backups to assure your work of several years doesn't get last in an emergency.

LOL - sometimes it's just better not to make a count of the actual numbers of birds you have.

 

[gjensen]

Though my flock does represent a few generations, I have nothing of the numbers that you guys describe. Even with what I have, here at the last minute, I am considering not using a few.

I would have to hatch into the thousands to justify a hundred over wintered adults. It is my opinion that it takes 12-16 chicks to know what you can get from a mating. It could be as many as 24. I try to get 8-10 in a season, and hope they are good enough to keep for a repeat the following year. They would have to be especially helpful to use a third or fourth time. So with 20 hens, that is 160 in a year. I am not implying that I do this precisely, but it is a reference. It is how my brain works. So 90 hens would be for me, 720-900 chicks.

The 90 hens number I am using is based on a hundred birds, 10 being males.

As much as I wish that I could hatch that many, I am not set up for that. Even if I was, I would be hard pressed to find 90 hens that I felt was worth the time and expense to feed. I guess that I could if I hatched and grew out 720-900 birds. It still might take a couple years to come up with the 90 hens. The more I had, the more selective I could be.

It is good to hear that some might be able to effectively manage breeding flocks of that size. I am just not one of them.

 

[RedRidge]

 Though my flock does represent a few generations, I have nothing of the numbers that you guys describe. Even with what I have, here at the last minute, I am considering not using a few.

 I would have to hatch into the thousands to justify a hundred over wintered adults. It is my opinion that it takes 12-16 chicks to know what you can get from a mating. It could be as many as 24. I     try to get 8-10 in a season, and hope they are good enough to keep for a repeat the following year. They would have to be especially helpful to use a third or fourth time. So with 20 hens, that is 160 in a year. I am not implying that I do this precisely, but it is a reference. It is how my brain works. So 90 hens would be for me, 720-900 chicks.

 The 90 hens number I am using is based on a hundred birds, 10 being males.

 As much as I wish that I could hatch that many, I am not set up for that. Even if I was, I would be hard pressed to find 90 hens that I felt was worth the time and expense to feed. I guess that I could if I hatched and grew out 720-900 birds. It still might take a couple years to come up with the 90 hens. The more I had, the more selective I could be.

  It is good to hear that some might be able to effectively manage breeding flocks of that size. I am just not one of them.

Some excellent points. I maintain only 4 breeding pens of RIR, a trio in each pen plus a dozen or so who didn't make the cut who are just layers, and an extra backup cock for each pen. Haven't counted but, for breeding purposes those numbers aren't bad. I'd like to get my breeding project birds down to those same numbers within the next year and a half. But MY RIR line is a great line and all culling is knit picky.
However, my genetic project is at peak required space right now. I have F1s, F2s, BC1s, BC2s, and am working on the next generations from those. AND, to this point, I have two distinct, unrelated lines of each of those groups (because until recently no one else was doing this project the way it needed to be done imo). By fall of 2016 I hope to have only enough for 4 distinct breeding pens, but you have to cull really deep to get that far. And frequently you can not really realize what you had and can cull too soon if you aren't careful. Those breedings where you realized that that step forward you took has created two steps back? You're better off backing up one step rather than willingly taking the results of the wrong step forward.
In short, what I'm over wintering this year is not an every year thing. It's a means to an end, and finally that end is in sight. If all goes well, that end won't be the headlight of an oncoming train. LOL
And it's nice that someone else is really now taking this project seriously. I now have some of his genetics and am taking him several pullets when I make a trip there in 2 weeks