Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[gjensen]

This is exactly why I quit worrying about trying to learn more about modern day chicken genetics, at least for a while. There are a few people that raise my breed that can tell you all about this allele and that allele. But in looking at their chickens - I'm not seeing that they have raised birds that look any better than what the rest of us have, and they're not doing it any faster either. There is so much to learn out there, that I figure if our ancestors could raise nice looking, healthy, productive birds hundreds of years ago, without all the fancy scientific equipment, until I have time or get stuck with something, I will use the old fashioned methods that have worked for a long time. After all, I have old fashioned birds anyway.

I disagree with the notion that we should disregard "modern day chicken genetics", and I assuming that it is a general statement that refers to modern poultry science in general.

Like you I do not get caught up in the misc. that makes us sound smart. I tend to smile at all of the internet geneticists floating around, though some are very good with it. Only a few. Then many never care to look past color genetics. Whenever genetics is brought up, color is the only thing mentioned. Though a working knowledge of the genetics of a color variety is useful, it certainly does not teach us how to breed the color. It may teach us how to get to a color, but it does not teach us how to perfect it. It is one thing to get to a color variety and another to do something with it when we get there. It is still certainly helpful to see the nature of it, and to understand why the tendencies that are there act the way they do. It is only that the factual knowledge of the genetics will only get us so far.

What I do not want to dismiss is knowledge of any sort as if it some sort of bother. That does not make sense to me. All of it is tools and an aid. If coupled with someone that rolls up their sleeves and goes to work, then it is worth something.

ETA: I guess that I am agreeing and disagreeing.

 

[gjensen]

The way I see it, I know we understand more about the genetics in terms of the actual science, such as identification of the particular alleles and their locations on the DNA strand, how they may or must combine to result in certain characteristics, etc. But when it comes to husbandry practices it seems that much was figured out by the early 1900s based on practical observation and application of techniques combined with sound record keeping. They may not have known the specific allele for black vs white vs barred, but they figured out how to pair up the birds for breeding in order to get the results they were looking for based on observations. People like Hogan figured out that examination of the bird's body told you a fair amount about production without needing to resort to the use of a microscope.

I think this is a good point. It does not dismiss what came after, and gives credit to what came before.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
Not having been on the research or intense breeding scene 25 yrs ago enough to even know what we knew or didn't, I tend to question whether we are farther along. After reading Hogan's book, the parts where there were questions and answers to his column seem to just repeat the same issues people are dealing with and asking about today....productivity being lost to preserving the breed standard, people getting into raising chickens with very little or very askew knowledge and wondering why their birds are not producing, are dying or why they aren't making any money from it. If I've heard that last one once I've heard it a thousand times..."a person can't make a profit on raising chickens", when I~much like Hogan~would beg to differ. If you aren't making any least bit of profit on a working flock, you are not working your flock, IMO.

When I read people defending the lack of productive laying in heritage breeds and stating that birds "back in the day" weren't really high production either~ Hogan's findings and efforts and those of others would seem to put down that argument.... I wonder if we are farther along or just rehashing the same ol' issues, age after age.

 

[gjensen]

Not having been on the research or intense breeding scene 25 yrs ago enough to even know what we knew or didn't, I tend to question whether we are farther along. After reading Hogan's book, the parts where there were questions and answers to his column seem to just repeat the same issues people are dealing with and asking about today....productivity being lost to preserving the breed standard, people getting into raising chickens with very little or very askew knowledge and wondering why their birds are not producing, are dying or why they aren't making any money from it. If I've heard that last one once I've heard it a thousand times..."a person can't make a profit on raising chickens", when I~much like Hogan~would beg to differ. If you aren't making any least bit of profit on a working flock, you are not working your flock, IMO.

When I read people defending the lack of productive laying in heritage breeds and stating that birds "back in the day" weren't really high production either~ Hogan's findings and efforts and those of others would seem to put down that argument.... I wonder if we are farther along or just rehashing the same ol' issues, age after age.

You misunderstand the time frame that I was trying to communicate. 25 years from the time Hogan wrote his book. Not the most recent 25 years. The period from 1900-1950 saw a rapid expansion of knowledge concerning the "science of productive poultry".
The industry split in this time frame, and frankly, our birds were left behind for more productive birds. Exclusively breeding for production changed them into something else altogether.

I don't think we are rehashing the same issues over and again, and I do. I say we are not because we are the only ones that are. We are a minority in this setting. Most, even those that claim otherwise, are not concerned with this. I say that we are because this discussion has been had through the years. This discussion resulted in the split. At one time, the APA was the poultry industry. There was those that wanted to (rightly so) protect breed character. Then there was those that were advancing quickly into an expanding industry, and changing the birds into something else for profit.

People are like a pendulum. We swing from one extreme to another. We never have any balance for long.

I think we have to make an honest assessment on what we want to accomplish. Frankly, If I was concerned with poultry breeding exclusively for the numbers, I would not waste my time with pure breeds. I would not want to be bound by any perception of what the bird should be. Then I would not accomplish anything of any value. I could never compete with the commercial birds that are out there, though I would use them in my projects. I did this for years. I enjoyed it, and learned a lot. I also understood it was just a hobby.

If I was concerned with profit, I would go the Greenfire route, or I would use the best producers out there. Why would I not want to use the best producers out there? The Greenfire route because the people that pay are sold by that kind of marketing.

I have come to appreciate the different poultry breeds and their history. I would rather them not be lost to time. I was disappointed to find where they were concerning productivity. I feel that we let a lot slip away. I think we should expect better. I would like to see these productive like anyone else. More than most in fact, and I try to put my money where my mouth is. I also do not expect them to compete commercially except in niche markets.

I want birds that represent the breed well. I do not want junk, and I do not want useless. I certainly do not want unhealthy. I do not want to be on any extreme. I want what I would call good birds.

Bee, this new interest in keeping poultry will wane. Hopefully some will continue and learn to breed good birds. I hope that I will be able to continue. The future is uncertain. An optimistic view would be that a decent percentage of new poultry keepers will be interested in learning to breed their definition of a good bird. It is just a hobby, but I kind of like these birds myself.

The good news is that not all of these breeds and strains are unproductive. Some still do well. Some not as well of course, but they belong to someone else. If they are happy with them, then good for them.

 

[Beekissed]

I want the same thing....a bird that represents the breed well and also a bird that fulfills the breed's original potential. That's why I love the dual purpose breeds the most because one doesn't expect production like the true layer breeds, nor meat like the true meat crosses, but a well rounded and good showing of both. The best that a dual purpose breed can be in both regards...and if one area is slacking, can it truly still be referred to as "dual purpose"? A person can get eggs and meat from most any breed if you aren't expecting too much in either area, but I'd like to think I expect the most from all things I do in life, including keeping chickens. In a dual purpose breed I find the most versatility for my efforts in keeping and breeding chickens and it streamlines my efforts towards a good, heirloom type flock that provides the maximum amount of food for the amount of feed given.

I'm pretty serious about producing food that can still be safely eaten and also not wasting money in doing so, but also in doing something well in regards to breed. If all I can shoot for is mediocrity, it's not really worth any intense effort and is more of a plaything than anything else.

 

[gjensen]

I want the same thing....a bird that represents the breed well and also a bird that fulfills the breed's original potential. That's why I love the dual purpose breeds the most because one doesn't expect production like the true layer breeds, nor meat like the true meat crosses, but a well rounded and good showing of both. The best that a dual purpose breed can be in both regards...and if one area is slacking, can it truly still be referred to as "dual purpose"? A person can get eggs and meat from most any breed if you aren't expecting too much in either area, but I'd like to think I expect the most from all things I do in life, including keeping chickens. In a dual purpose breed I find the most versatility for my efforts in keeping and breeding chickens and it streamlines my efforts towards a good, heirloom type flock that provides the maximum amount of food for the amount of feed given.

I'm pretty serious about producing food that can still be safely eaten and also not wasting money in doing so, but also in doing something well in regards to breed. If all I can shoot for is mediocrity, it's not really worth any intense effort and is more of a plaything than anything else.

That is pretty much where I am at. I want good birds, but I am not expecting them to win a marathon. That is not what they are, or ever were. Most anyways.

I wouldn't expect a Leghorn to set records either. Not if they were well bred Leghorns. If I had a good healthy flock of Brown Leghorns that were Standard bred and they laid 220-240 large eggs pa, I would be more than happy with them. On the other hand if they laid 160 small eggs, I would not be excited about them. I can get 280-300 egg pa commercial Leghorns, but that is not what I am interested in. I would always be more forgiving with especially rare breeds, difficult color varieties, or breeds that were never intended to be production fowl.

Some color varieties within a production breed were never intended to be production fowl, and it would be unrealistic to have especially high expectations now.

I realize that you know all of this. I am trying to clarify my position. I often talk about productive birds, but that word means different things to different people.

There is a man not far from me that has a beautiful flock of Black Minorcas. I have chatted with him, but I do not know him. I do know that he has a gorgeous flock of birds. Very well bred birds. I do not care if you like Minorcas or not, they are still a sight for sore eyes. If they lay 180-200 extra large eggs, they are truly something.

What kills me is to have them take forever to come into lay, then barely lay through the winter, come on late in the spring, then lay 3-4 medium sized eggs, and on top of it all, take a break in the summer. They would have to be a specialty breed for me to tolerate all of that. Otherwise, I would just as soon kill them and eat them.

I do not want anything to do with the extremes. I just want a good solid flock of birds to enjoy. And eat. LOL.

 

[DesertChic]

Bee, this new interest in keeping poultry will wane. Hopefully some will continue and learn to breed good birds. I hope that I will be able to continue. The future is uncertain. An optimistic view would be that a decent percentage of new poultry keepers will be interested in learning to breed their definition of a good bird. It is just a hobby, but I kind of like these birds myself.

The good news is that not all of these breeds and strains are unproductive. Some still do well. Some not as well of course, but they belong to someone else. If they are happy with them, then good for them.

I know you're probably right about this, but I sincerely hope you're wrong. Around here most of the people I encounter who want to keep chickens are initially only talking eggs, as in having a pet that will lay breakfast for them, but this trend has at least generated a growing interest in the birds themselves. My employees, vendors and customers thought I was a little crazy when I started keeping chickens. They all had preconceived notions of what was entailed and none of their imaginings were pleasant. As they're seeing how pleasant the birds can be to own, how beautiful they can be, and how many different breeds there are to choose from, their mentalities have shifted considerably. Now instead of sneering with that cautious look in their eyes when they speak to me they're asking me real questions with genuine interest about different breeds, checking out my coops and runs, and becoming completely charmed by the chickens themselves...all while realizing that these "pets" are a food source of true quality, controlled by the way they are raised and fed. I'm constantly being asked about selling eggs and meat. Now I've got people talking about getting their children involved in raising chickens, joining 4H, etc. At least a few of these people will hopefully become the type who want to preserve and improve pure and heritage breeds, especially if they start their interest as children.

The one thing that truly saddens me is that in my area I've not encountered many breeders with the focus and passion I've seen expressed here except, unfortunately, among those who still breed fighting birds. Cock fighting is still legal just 40 miles away from my house, across the Mexican border, and the last poultry show I went to was nearly overwhelmed by Mexican and Hispanic men looking for the best birds to breed new fighters with. Their birds literally took up half of the building. Here'e people who are truly passionate about good breeding....but for reasons I detest.

 

[Beekissed]

I tend to agree that the trend will wane and/or not get into any serious chicken breeding for the simple and overwhelming, almost across the board, repugnance towards killing/culling birds and educating themselves about healthy stocking rates. We are a generation of people who want things that other people have but don't want to do what it takes to have it and, unfortunately, you cannot "rehome" every bird that you don't want and you cannot indulge in "chicken math" to your heart's content unless you eventually fall prey to overcrowding, filthy living conditions, and social/behavior/health issues within the flock.

For these simple~but integral to serious breeding~issues, I can't foresee any true, long term and serious contributions towards breeding quality birds. I see, rather, a trend towards pet quality or pet breeds only and nothing much towards laying or dual purpose breeds, without any true desire to improve the breeds but to just have them.

People want chickens but they don't particularly care about doing it to benefit the breed or birds, merely to benefit their whims at the moment. I've seen that change more and more towards what I've described, just in the 6 yrs I've been on BYC. The trend is towards pretty breeds, unusual toy breeds, and pretty eggs but I see no true intentions of actually developing the breeds they've chosen, just as long as they can hatch, hatch, hatch and have chicks to talk about, try to make unusual pairings to produce "designer" chickens and just having an unusual pet.

I never, in all my life, had ever heard of chickens winding up in "rescue" positions, but the past several years I have.....stories in the paper, much like you read about puppy mills and other animal hoarding stories, wherein the animals in question are chickens. Chickens in an animal shelter. I never thought I'd see the day, but it's happening.

I don't call that a renewed interest in chickens, I call that what it is....a new sort of pet market being taken up by individuals that have no business raising any animal, let alone a food/farm animal, in the middle of a city or town. I see it as a cryin' shame.

 

[Fentress]

I tend to agree that the trend will wane and/or not get into any serious chicken breeding for the simple and overwhelming, almost across the board, repugnance towards killing/culling birds and educating themselves about healthy stocking rates. We are a generation of people who want things that other people have but don't want to do what it takes to have it and, unfortunately, you cannot "rehome" every bird that you don't want and you cannot indulge in "chicken math" to your heart's content unless you eventually fall prey to overcrowding, filthy living conditions, and social/behavior/health issues within the flock.

For these simple~but integral to serious breeding~issues, I can't foresee any true, long term and serious contributions towards breeding quality birds. I see, rather, a trend towards pet quality or pet breeds only and nothing much towards laying or dual purpose breeds, without any true desire to improve the breeds but to just have them.

People want chickens but they don't particularly care about doing it to benefit the breed or birds, merely to benefit their whims at the moment. I've seen that change more and more towards what I've described, just in the 6 yrs I've been on BYC. The trend is towards pretty breeds, unusual toy breeds, and pretty eggs but I see no true intentions of actually developing the breeds they've chosen, just as long as they can hatch, hatch, hatch and have chicks to talk about, try to make unusual pairings to produce "designer" chickens and just having an unusual pet.

I never, in all my life, had ever heard of chickens winding up in "rescue" positions, but the past several years I have.....stories in the paper, much like you read about puppy mills and other animal hoarding stories, wherein the animals in question are chickens. Chickens in an animal shelter. I never thought I'd see the day, but it's happening.

I don't call that a renewed interest in chickens, I call that what it is....a new sort of pet market being taken up by individuals that have no business raising any animal, let alone a food/farm animal, in the middle of a city or town. I see it as a cryin' shame.

I read several years ago, it was in the Northwest, Portland or Seatle, that there were businesses that have sprung up to help people with their chicken afterlife issues. They offered counseling to the bereived and burial. Also, they were running a retirement home for birds that were no longer wanted. Could be some business opportunities there for those of us that can keep a straight face.

But seriously, I think that a community of folks will develop that are interested to true to breed birds that are productive even if it is a small group. It will be interesting to see what breeds draw the most interest. I have heard that the standard bred brown leghorn can make a decent fryer as well as lay eggs, my BR make a good large roaster and it sounds like there are strains of NH that do a good job of splitting it right down the middle. People like labels and they like to collect. Once they learn that the chickens from the hatcheries are mutts, maybe there will be more interest.

 

[bluebirdnanny]

Wow! With the conversations I should have been on here reading instead of doing family ancestry when I was so sick with this lung infection!!! Too many things to do and not much energy. Was all I could do to bundle myself up and go take fresh (unfrozen) water every couple hours Got one Cockerel should have met the cull a long time ago but my lung health combined with this shoulder has saved him so far. By the time it heals enough to take care of him (and rearrange freezer to make space) I will probably be breeding my hens to the other older cockerel and hatching eggs from that.

Doing this "as much as I can" for myself and endeavoring for the breeding and maintenance of running a self sufficient homestead as a single person gets to be somewhat painful at times... carrying in and out the water AND a kittie liter sized bucket of FF (fermented feed). But stubborn I am...

It is a small scale of the life I always wanted to have so I keep going.