Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[gjensen]

I have done some thinking about this topic skimming through these posts.

One thought that I had come to mind is that many of the breeds that we have were never improved fowl to begin with. That is the older than most recent breeds less a few. What was a good layer in their time, would not be considered a good layer today. Then there are varieties that were never known as top "production fowl". Should we expect anymore from them than to be reasonable producers? I do not think so.

I do not think that the most challenging color varieties should be expected to be "production fowl", and some color varieties are more difficult than they would seam to someone that has no experience breeding it. Should we neglect the color? No. If that mattered nothing to us, then we should choose an easier variety, like dominant white. Some of us like different varieties for our own reasons.

There was purely utility lines. These are better suited, especially today, in white, black, etc. The more selection criteria there is, the longer it takes to make progress. We cannot hatch in the thousands as they did during the 30s and 40s. These breeds were the production fowl and they were developed on specialized farms. Mom and Pop's layer flocks is not where the improvement was made, it was where they were maintained for personal use.

Am I saying that we should do nothing? No. I think we should, but I do not know of but a couple that actually do. I have grown weary of talking about it, because that is all it ends up amounting to.

The majority of the Standard bred birds that I have had experience with failed on a few key points, and ironically the easiest to select for. The breeds that I have been interested in were known as production fowl.

The lay rate for the most part has been acceptable unless you want a purely specialized utility line. The length of lay has been the problem. Too late to come into lay, and too early to molt. Then forever and a day to come out of molt, and begin laying again. In the day and age where people cannot add more than the eggs laid in the last week, that is hard to explain.
A March 1 hatched pullet that begins laying Nov 1 @ 32 wks is only going to lay 10 or 11 months before she molts. One that reaches point of lay 6wks earlier is going to lay for 6wks longer, not to mention she will come into lay before the days are as short, and is more likely to lay better through the winter. A pullet that simply lays a 4 egg per week average over 52 wks lays 208 eggs. That is not bad for a dual purpose bird where the cockerels were ready as fryers @ 14wks. In a bird that has good color and type, and has good fertility and hatchability . . . that is pretty darned good. (I am thinking of NHs)

The egg size is often lacking. A 7lb hen should be laying an egg larger than 2oz. That is not hard to select for, but I have had my share of hens that big that barely reach that @ their 1 year mark.

Dual purpose birds that are considered for the production of meat should not be excessively feathered. These birds are always lighter than they appear, and put a lot of protein and energy into all of that feather when we want it devoted to flesh. I am not saying that they should be bald.

Oversized. Bigger is not always better though the impression might be impressive. I think the standard weights are breed appropriate, and provide good anchor points. Neglecting this, one of the most fundamental breed characteristics, is not helpful.

Other than that, I have found them for the most part, acceptable.

Vigor plays a part, and improving birds, no matter the emphasis, involves some level of line breeding. A simple outcross to another strain could very well improve hatchability and fertility. They might come into lay just a bit earlier etc. Be careful what you ask for, but if the cautions are not a concern, then invigorate them. We should be wanting to have vigorous stock anyways. It is better than complaining about fertility and hatchability. I do not like hassling with that either. I do not care to have my incubator running all year round. I want the eggs hatching like popcorn.

Some are in better shape than others. We talk as if they are all in terrible shape, but that is not true. My NHs are pretty decent. Their is a little too much feather, and they are a little too large. By selecting for width and depth, they have trended larger. They come into lay by 24 wks, and they are pretty good layers, laying about 180 eggs. I want their eggs larger, but they are laying 2 oz. eggs. My biggest grief is not when they mature, but how they fill out early on. I attribute that to too much feather and too large of frames. Maybe I will get lucky and hatch a bird that I like that is not as large. In the mean time I will not sacrifice type. Particularly width and depth because that is what I see lacking the most out there. A friend of mine gifted me some chicks that is one of my males on her hens. Her birds had better color and are smaller, so maybe I will have some luck. A little shot of new blood will not hurt either. Time will tell.

My Catalanas are good layers laying 220-240 eggs extra large eggs in their pullet year. They are very fast to mature sexually, but the cockerels take too long to fill out. Overall they are undersized. I am hatching some that reach standard weights, but I am having trouble hatching individuals that I like and reach these weights. I have a side pen devoted to what I hope will be a solution. First do no harm.

We are not going to find the perfect birds. All we can do is come up with the best that we can come up with, and go to work. We cannot hatch thousands (I cannot), so progress is little by little, and bit by bit. All I can really emphasize is a couple things per year. This is a lifetime's work. Most do not keep at anything that long. Time will tell if I will or not. Maybe, maybe not. I hope so. It is not as if we are going to snap our fingers and everything will change.

Someone that wanted to make a pure utility line and had no interest in showing could be more creative in the most simple of colors, but most do not have the commitment and interest to see it all of the way through. It is not rocket science, but it would be no small commitment.

It is good to hear the APA will re emphasize production but I agree with Walt that they judge what we bring them.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
I've heard that said quite a bit on these breeder threads but it leaves me scratching my head when I read about records on egg laying being broken not today but back in the early 1900s in these dual purpose breeds, in particular. In the first pages of the Call of the Hen by Walter Hogan you see a pic of a 2 yr old WR hen called Lady Show Me that held the world record for a 2 yr old hen when she laid 281 eggs in the National Egg laying contest at the Missouri State Poultry Experiment Station. And that was a dual purpose breed...and she was 2 yrs old.

Then I read about how the Australorp gained world wide attention in the 1920s when the breed broke "numerous world records" for number of eggs laid. As I read articles like this I either have to think these old breeders and these trap nest competitions held back then were just liars and faulty record keepers or we've got a problem in our perceptions of what constitutes a "good layer" in our present time....I know I've had many an excellent layer in my time but I doubt I've had any of my DP birds setting records like this.
Quote:

It's apparent to me that these breeders developing these early forms of our present birds were concentrating on utility in their breeding strategies. Somehow I get the drift that folks think we can't have both function and form any longer and I get dire warnings that it would be a lot of work, that one could lose standard bred traits of feather and form along the road to utility, or that I just have a mistaken idea of what the original breed was capable of laying and that they just weren't good layers back then, so they don't have to be now either.

Just a quick analogy here but it reminds me of some parenting strategies in which people say they allow their teens to drink and have parties at home because they would rather them drink while safe at home than be driving home drunk from parties elsewhere. How about the third option of a teen not drinking or partying at all? I used to be one, so I know it's possible to have a teen that doesn't do that. I had three that didn't do it. Yeah, it's a lot of hard work to watch over your children to that degree, but it's a worthy pursuit and who wants to compromise to the degree that one offers them drugs in their own home as an act of surrender to the "hard work" of parenting?

I just will not accept that it must be one or the other for these dual purpose breeds....good form or good utility, but not both in the same package. Call me naive or call me anything you like, but I just don't see it.

 

[gjensen]

I've heard that said quite a bit on these breeder threads but it leaves me scratching my head when I read about records on egg laying being broken not today but back in the early 1900s in these dual purpose breeds, in particular. In the first pages of the Call of the Hen by Walter Hogan you see a pic of a 2 yr old WR hen called Lady Show Me that held the world record for a 2 yr old hen when she laid 281 eggs in the National Egg laying contest at the Missouri State Poultry Experiment Station. And that was a dual purpose breed...and she was 2 yrs old.

Then I read about how the Australorp gained world wide attention in the 1920s when the breed broke "numerous world records" for number of eggs laid. As I read articles like this I either have to think these old breeders and these trap nest competitions held back then were just liars and faulty record keepers or we've got a problem in our perceptions of what constitutes a "good layer" in our present time....I know I've had many an excellent layer in my time but I doubt I've had any of my DP birds setting records like this.


It's apparent to me that these breeders developing these early forms of our present birds were concentrating on utility in their breeding strategies. Somehow I get the drift that folks think we can't have both function and form any longer and I get dire warnings that it would be a lot of work, that one could lose standard bred traits of feather and form along the road to utility, or that I just have a mistaken idea of what the original breed was capable of laying and that they just weren't good layers back then, so they don't have to be now either.

Just a quick analogy here but it reminds me of some parenting strategies in which people say they allow their teens to drink and have parties at home because they would rather them drink while safe at home than be driving home drunk from parties elsewhere. How about the third option of a teen not drinking or partying at all? I used to be one, so I know it's possible to have a teen that doesn't do that. I had three that didn't do it. Yeah, it's a lot of hard work to watch over your children to that degree, but it's a worthy pursuit and who wants to compromise to the degree that one offers them drugs in their own home as an act of surrender to the "hard work" of parenting?

I just will not accept that it must be one or the other for these dual purpose breeds....good form or good utility, but not both in the same package. Call me naive or call me anything you like, but I just don't see it.

You took the comments about what constitutes a good layer then and now out of context Bee. I was referring to breeds that were never improved. I made it reasonably clear. There are as many breeds that were never improved as were. Hogan was not working with Cubalayas, Javas, etc. etc. etc. The breeds improved along these lines (to the levels that are used as examples) is less than what was. The point was that we should not expect complicated color varieties, and breeds that were never improved for this purpose to be super production birds today. They never were. That would be unrealistic. I would ask that you read those comments again. Your view is more narrow that mine was writing that. I had all of the poultry world in mind. If you think that you can get Gold Laced Wyandottes to have good color, good type, and lay like commercial layers then go for it. I would not even try something silly like that. Instead I would be happy to have decent layers that were healthy and vigorous. I would select, but I would not expect.

Concerning the other points, roll up your sleeves and get it done. Maybe you can be the example. We talk, and talk, and talk. We all say it should be this way or that way and do nothing about it. We complain about what everyone else does or does not, but contribute nothing at all. I do not care what kind of birds Hogan had. I care about what I have. I do the best I can to make the progress that I do. I put my money where my mouth is, and whether or not my money is well spent will be judged by other years from now. In the mean time I will enjoy my birds, my hobby, and learning to breed an entire bird.

All we end up contributing (myself included) is our own view or ideology. We just go round and round and round. I can't see where I have contributed anything beneficial, and I see very few actual contributions being made. I like to read about what others are doing. Not what others should do. We cannot get past the opinions. I like to read Redridge's posts because I hear numbers, and actual doing. Actual breeding projects, pictures, and results to back it up.

As much as you enjoy your White Rocks, I would have loved to have read about the numbers. What your hang ups were. What you were trying to accomplish. Questions and answers. Progress pictures etc. etc. You should breed the best typed, most productive rocks out there. I wish that I would have been smart enough to pick the breed and color. An excellent breed, an excellent variety, and plenty of people to learn from.

I love reading old articles and books. I especially enjoy those that are about the actual breeding from breeders that bred the entire bird. I am always looking for something new. I love poultry history, but it is just that. History. Maybe at some point these conversations will shift past what has been done and to what people are doing now.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
In the process of doing that very thing.

That's why I believe it can be done and feel it's worthy of being done. It's also why I would never choose a Wyandotte with which to do it....not a breed that I've ever found good laying in the first place. My method is to start with something you know can perform then work towards making it do just that very thing. Yeah, that makes it easier and that's also something I love....no need to work harder than ya have to, to get a job done.

Thanks to Mr. Weaver, Fred and Kathy, I've already got a good start this breeding season~add to that a blessing and surprise of two chicks from a good layer strain from the Lord, that was the deciding factor on the level of success~ and am excited to see what becomes of it. Will try to keep track of numbers, though without a trap nest that's a little less than accurate. I guess they got tired of me talking about production levels and said, "Here ya go...here's some standard bred fowl, let's see what you do with them. Put up or shut up." With God's help, I'm putting up.

If there is anything people should know about me by now on this forum, gjensen, is that I'm not all talk and no walk. While others are debating the general merits of a method, I'm trying it on for size and doing my own little experiment on it. If I feel it has merit to begin with, I don't do it by halves. That's one reason I left the self sufficiency forum sister site....a lot of talk but no one actually DOING. I'm a doer, I have done and will continue to DO. I'm also a talker but, in the end, I'm a hands on experience kind of person so that I can say "Yes, it can be done because I've done it or I'm doing it right now." Not, "I read about that somewhere, so it must be so."

Buckle down...it WILL be done. If the Lord is willing and the creek don't rise, I will have WRs that look right and lay right in the end.

Or, I better say I will try during the time left to me in this world to achieve that goal and hope to succeed during that time, but it won't be from lack of trying. Don't want to write checks my current body will not cash!

 

[capayvalleychick]

Two subjects here ... first, on judges not knowing the Standard for breeds not usually seen in shows ... the person who judged the English class at the show where I entered my Dorkings said that he looked at the entries on the day before judging. Since he was not familiar with Dorkings, he said that he spent time the night before studying the standard for this breed & variety.

Next, a question about hybrid layers vs older breeds. I've seen the numbers listed for numbers of eggs produced by hybrids, but I've never had any of these birds. How do they differ in their egg laying? Do they not stop during molt or winter?

I ask because I've been happy with the egg production of my Dorkings, even though the breed is not considered one of the best layers. They start laying at about 5 months of age. They lay about every other day, except during molt and stop in winter, but start again after Winter solstice. If we have an extended heat wave, this slows them down. This seems to me to be normal for a chicken. I wouldn't expect more because they are not machines. They do lay a small to medium size egg, which could be improved.

The Delawares are even better in production because the eggs are larger and the majority usually lay every single day. I don't see how a hybrid could beat that. The Dels also stop for molt and winter, taking maybe a month longer to start up laying again than the Dorkings. My other strains of Dels started laying at about 20 weeks. Kathy's F4's didn't start until 30 weeks, which was the longest I've ever had to wait for pullets to start laying. Most of the F5s started at 28 weeks, so that's improving.

So- what do the hybrids do that makes them better layers than what I've described?

One thing I know ... the summers here are prone to heat waves of many days over 100 degrees, sometimes up to 120 F. I know that the production egg farms lose hundreds of birds when this happens. Even the organic farmers who pasture their birds have huge losses during heat waves. In contrast, I may lose old old bird to the heat each summer.

Because of what I've been reading in the past couple years, I have started trying to improve laying ability in my flock. What I'm doing may not be the best but it's what I can do. During breeding season, each hen is housed individually. I make note of the eggs that they lay, so that I can try to identify who is laying the rest of the year. Last year, I started culling any hens that did not lay at least every other day, while in the breeding pen. I'm hoping egg size will increase along with the increased size of the hens that I am selecting.

I don't have any way to determine the actual annual egg count for each bird. The exception is my lone blue egg layer. AKA UofA Blue or Arkansas Blue. Supposed to be a Leghorn cross, so this is my example of a hybrid for comparison. This year, she started laying later in the year than the Dorkings, about the same time as the Dels. She's produced 29 eggs so far this year, out of 75 days. I'm fairly sure that the Standard birds are laying just as well if not better than that, so far.

 

[Beekissed]

With my flock size, I find it easier to identify those that are NOT laying and do the total egg count for the flock, subtracting those birds not currently in lay. They are usually obvious but then there is the occasional layer(s) and that's a little more difficult with egg colors and sizes being so similar.

I can also note who is laying currently by rooster behavior, though I'm sure it's not entirely accurate, it's pretty good. It lets me know when one that has been very productive goes into a slow down, as his attentions will switch from that bird or birds and will center on the current steady layer(s). With a smaller flock that's easier, with larger numbers not so much. On my white birds it's easier to tell who is getting bred frequently and when they are no longer getting that level of attention.

A person does the best they can and then no more on keeping egg records on individual birds if they have no trap nests. I guess a person could rig tiny cameras in the nests and identify leg bands from the film.

 

[ronott1]

Two subjects here ... first, on judges not knowing the Standard for breeds not usually seen in shows ... the person who judged the English class at the show where I entered my Dorkings said that he looked at the entries on the day before judging. Since he was not familiar with Dorkings, he said that he spent time the night before studying the standard for this breed & variety.

Next, a question about hybrid layers vs older breeds. I've seen the numbers listed for numbers of eggs produced by hybrids, but I've never had any of these birds. How do they differ in their egg laying? Do they not stop during molt or winter?

I ask because I've been happy with the egg production of my Dorkings, even though the breed is not considered one of the best layers. They start laying at about 5 months of age. They lay about every other day, except during molt and stop in winter, but start again after Winter solstice. If we have an extended heat wave, this slows them down. This seems to me to be normal for a chicken. I wouldn't expect more because they are not machines. They do lay a small to medium size egg, which could be improved.

The Delawares are even better in production because the eggs are larger and the majority usually lay every single day. I don't see how a hybrid could beat that. The Dels also stop for molt and winter, taking maybe a month longer to start up laying again than the Dorkings. My other strains of Dels started laying at about 20 weeks. Kathy's F4's didn't start until 30 weeks, which was the longest I've ever had to wait for pullets to start laying. Most of the F5s started at 28 weeks, so that's improving.

So- what do the hybrids do that makes them better layers than what I've described?

One thing I know ... the summers here are prone to heat waves of many days over 100 degrees, sometimes up to 120 F. I know that the production egg farms lose hundreds of birds when this happens. Even the organic farmers who pasture their birds have huge losses during heat waves. In contrast, I may lose old old bird to the heat each summer.

Because of what I've been reading in the past couple years, I have started trying to improve laying ability in my flock. What I'm doing may not be the best but it's what I can do. During breeding season, each hen is housed individually. I make note of the eggs that they lay, so that I can try to identify who is laying the rest of the year. Last year, I started culling any hens that did not lay at least every other day, while in the breeding pen. I'm hoping egg size will increase along with the increased size of the hens that I am selecting.

I don't have any way to determine the actual annual egg count for each bird. The exception is my lone blue egg layer. AKA UofA Blue or Arkansas Blue. Supposed to be a Leghorn cross, so this is my example of a hybrid for comparison. This year, she started laying later in the year than the Dorkings, about the same time as the Dels. She's produced 29 eggs so far this year, out of 75 days. I'm fairly sure that the Standard birds are laying just as well if not better than that, so far.

By @gjensen 's description, Dels are an improved breed.

The Arkansas blue is already over 18 months old. She would have been "removed" from production already at a commercial egg farm.

That is a part of the answer to your question--Commercial layers lay for up to 18 months and then they are destroyed. They do not molt and then come back to lay eggs and they are always under optimal lighting.

 

[bnjrob]

I love reading old articles and books. I especially enjoy those that are about the actual breeding from breeders that bred the entire bird. I am always looking for something new. I love poultry history, but it is just that. History. Maybe at some point these conversations will shift past what has been done and to what people are doing now.

I don't think we'd have enough to talk about if we didn't talk about history. There just doesn't seem to be enough folks around to chat here that have been seriously breeding for long enough to have much to report about what they started with, where they are at, and where they want to be at. Especially when it comes to the topic of farming and homesteading with poultry, and those that are breeding both for production and SOP traits.

It takes a year, sometimes more, to really see where you're at with each hatch. That's a long time period and unless you have a good number of years of data under your belt, there isn't much current info to share.

.

 

[Beekissed]

I don't think we'd have enough to talk about if we didn't talk about history. There just doesn't seem to be enough folks around to chat here that have been seriously breeding for long enough to have much to report about what they started with, where they are at, and where they want to be at. Especially when it comes to the topic of farming and homesteading with poultry, and those that are breeding both for production and SOP traits.

It takes a year, sometimes more, to really see where you're at with each hatch. That's a long time period and unless you have a good number of years of data under your belt, there isn't much current info to share.

.

I agree. Just because it's history doesn't remove the fact that they kept good records back then, they were breeding intensively and making great strides in that area and we are merely standing on the shoulders of giants in the poultry field when we are breeding current strains of these breeds. What we currently have we would not have had if it were not for these earlier pioneers in this field, so they have earned my deepest respect.

Do I pay attention to witnessed and documented history? You bet I do. I find it way more credible than BYC posts or blog sites. They were dealing with universities, staging year long competitions around these improved breeds, and they were keeping very close records of it all...more so than any of us seem to do now. When's the last time any of us measured the width of a pelvic bone...not the whole pelvic space, but the actual bones? Or boiled down a carcass to show the shape and width of those bones? When's the last time we measured the keel for recording condition...not just felt the breast or looked at it, but actually developed a way to measure the condition of the bird according to how much keel could be grasped with two fingers?

I'll keep mining those history books about the methods they used because they produced measurable, reported results.

 

[bnjrob]

I agree. Just because it's history doesn't remove the fact that they kept good records back then, they were breeding intensively and making great strides in that area and we are merely standing on the shoulders of giants in the poultry field when we are breeding current strains of these breeds. What we currently have we would not have had if it were not for these earlier pioneers in this field, so they have earned my deepest respect.

Do I pay attention to witnessed and documented history? You bet I do. I find it way more credible than BYC posts or blog sites. They were dealing with universities, staging year long competitions around these improved breeds, and they were keeping very close records of it all...more so than any of us seem to do now. When's the last time any of us measured the width of a pelvic bone...not the whole pelvic space, but the actual bones? Or boiled down a carcass to show the shape and width of those bones? When's the last time we measured the keel for recording condition...not just felt the breast or looked at it, but actually developed a way to measure the condition of the bird according to how much keel could be grasped with two fingers?

I'll keep mining those history books about the methods they used because they produced measurable, reported results.

LOL. I hear ya! If I were to rely on anything written recently - I wouldn't have many sources to learn from. Even a good number of the poultry books being sold as new material has stuff taken from the old literature. Some of the books are actually just old scanned books that people downloaded, put their own cover on, and started selling to make some money.

And really - how much has changed in breeding and caring for poultry in the last hundred years? Yes we have fancy equipment we can buy and use and we have manufactured feed that is supposed to be a complete diet without the need for supplementation. But the principles of breeding and husbandry really haven't changed much over the years. Chickens are still chickens, turkeys are still turkeys, etc. And those folks back then knew a LOT. They didn't always know the rationale behind something, but they knew what worked and what didn't. They made observations, kept notes, changed things when they saw something wasn't working. There are times that I think they did a better job of observing and documenting things and passing on info to help other people than we do today.