Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[gjensen]

I had always thought of vigor as a long-term thing in a flock of poultry ... unless one is breeding for the "hybrid vigor" of a meat animal, in which case you're likely just looking for early size compared to the standard (parent) breeds, so are not concerned about long-term health or survival skills or breeding potential. As in Cornish Cross ... But I don't think that's the kind of vigor we should over value in a breeding program.

I think the pecking order of a flock of birds is a sum of all the parts. I have seen birds get to the bottom of the pecking order and then start to show health problems, but I've also seen previously "low status" hens be great broody moms and gain some flock status. I also realize a LOT is going on with the flock that I don't get to witness, so there is much I don't understand. I don't have a ton of experience, I'm only in my second breeding season now.

I've seen some interesting interpretations of the word "vigor" lately, so I've been thinking about it a bit.

It is long term and short term. You cannot have it later if you do not have it now. It is something to be maintained and preserved.

Neglecting this point is to run the birds into the ground.

There is always someone on the bottom concerning the pecking order. It does affect behavior and the reason I used it in the response to the OP. That the OP should caution against these types of selections, and focus on characteristics that are easier to quantify.

Back to the OP (that never brought up pecking order), if you remove your top two cockerels, suddenly the third will be bolder and more assertive. The behavior will change because the dynamics have changed.

 

[TeaChick]

In homesteading, I would think that foraging abilities would count for quite a lot in poultry, and that predator protection would be a pretty high priority too.
How do NHs stand on these qualities?
What breeds rate highly in these areas?

 

[Ifish]

Be careful here, though it does matter.

Vigor is seen in behavior, but is more than mental characteristics and is physical. It is an internal reality that manifests itself externally. There is physical evidence.

Caution should be applied because there is always someone on top, and some one is always on the bottom. Kill the bird on the bottom of the pecking order, and there will be a new bottom of the pecking order. I add this here, because where they are in this order does affect how they behave (what you see). There will always be someone on the bottom of the pecking order and this does relate to how they behave within a flock.

So, certainly take it all in consideration. Get to know them, certainly. Health and vigor is the #1 priorities, but that is not to limit them to the only points of selection. Not to mention that these things are difficult to quantify.

The more vigorous birds will most often be among your faster birds to grow and mature sexually. That is easy to select for in NHs, because that is a concern when selecting NHs.

Your start is not large, so I would start with the birds with the best type. Unless they lack thrift, I would leave them up for consideration. Pick your best typed birds. Next year, you will have more to select from.

Thanks again for the knowledge.

I understand that there is more to Vigor, but I'm still trying to figure out exactly what all of the parts are. I certainly wouldn't cull based on "boldness" alone, but thought it could be a part of the vigor equation.

Certainly understand about selecting for fast maturity with my NH's. That has been my main focus these last couple months.

Thrift is another term I need to get a handle on. When I think of thrift, I see chickens scratching and eating a bunch out in the yard. Like "Thrifty birds eat less feed" kind of thing. I have been thinking that thrift is another part of Vigor. Does Thrifty, in a sense, mean energetic and healthy?

Choosing off of type would certainly be much easier for me at this point. So far, the faster growing birds are also looking good as far as type. Though there really isn't much variance in the flock at this point other than those faster to feather, some size differences. The size differences are barley visual, and weight difference is a matter of a couple ounces between the boggest and smallest cockerels/pullets.

Lately I have found myself looking at the combs, counting points, which birds have the ticking on the neck hackles, etc. I guess it's easy to get distracted when looking at the whole picture. So I need to just get back to type and maturity. Thankfully I got my chicks from Luanne, so a lot of the hard work seems to have been done already. It's tough for a layman like me to pick out the weaker ones from a pretty uniform flock.

 

[gjensen]

Thanks again for the knowledge.

I understand that there is more to Vigor, but I'm still trying to figure out exactly what all of the parts are. I certainly wouldn't cull based on "boldness" alone, but thought it could be a part of the vigor equation.

Certainly understand about selecting for fast maturity with my NH's. That has been my main focus these last couple months.

Thrift is another term I need to get a handle on. When I think of thrift, I see chickens scratching and eating a bunch out in the yard. Like "Thrifty birds eat less feed" kind of thing. I have been thinking that thrift is another part of Vigor. Does Thrifty, in a sense, mean energetic and healthy?

Choosing off of type would certainly be much easier for me at this point. So far, the faster growing birds are also looking good as far as type. Though there really isn't much variance in the flock at this point other than those faster to feather, some size differences. The size differences are barley visual, and weight difference is a matter of a couple ounces between the boggest and smallest cockerels/pullets.

Lately I have found myself looking at the combs, counting points, which birds have the ticking on the neck hackles, etc. I guess it's easy to get distracted when looking at the whole picture. So I need to just get back to type and maturity. Thankfully I got my chicks from Luanne, so a lot of the hard work seems to have been done already. It's tough for a layman like me to pick out the weaker ones from a pretty uniform flock.

Does Thrifty, in a sense, mean energetic and healthy? - To me it does. To me a bird that lacks thrift, is a bird with it's head down and his/her tail down. Lacks the sheen and vitality that the others do. Unable to hold a good weight (established by handling them). Maybe was a runt, and is a runt. Not as active and energetic as the others. A cock that sits hunched up in the corner when it is cold, verses the cock that is outside crowing letting the world know he is there. Kill the first, and breed the second. If a cock's comb is turning blue in the heat, and the one in the next pen is bright red and he looks like he has not missed a beat . . . . These minor differences sometimes become apparent when the weather etc. is less than ideal.

There should be some variability to see. If I understand correctly, one of mine is the sire. It is a new outcross so it will give you some variability. In time, you will see it.

If you have a Standard . . . read it over and again. Compare the word selections with that of other breeds in the class. By comparing, you can develop a better frame of reference. Use this picture.. . . Understand their type, and why they have the type. The type is for a reason, and the two goes together.



Post some pictures when they are about 24wks old. Profile shots. We can try to help you keep from making any glaring color mistakes while you get the type in your head.

As you get this in your head, then start trying to learn the color. It is an easy color to get the fundamentals of, but not an easy color to perfect. Unless the color is largely perfected, and for us, it is not.

Just worry about type this year. Become familiar with the tail angle, the lift , the top line, the underline, the front end, the depth of keel, the width, that the width carries through, the shanks, the width between the legs, that they are level. That the legs are centered up on the body. There is a lot to get in your mind's eye with type alone.

One thing at a time.

You picked a good breed to start with. An over looked breed, and now an overlooked strain. They are good birds. Beautiful if person, easy to work with, hatch well, have reasonable growth rates, lay better than many, and are an over all join to own.

 

[Ifish]

Does Thrifty, in a sense, mean energetic and healthy? - To me it does. To me a bird that lacks thrift, is a bird with it's head down and his/her tail down. Lacks the sheen and vitality that the others do. Unable to hold a good weight (established by handling them). Maybe was a runt, and is a runt. Not as active and energetic as the others. A cock that sits hunched up in the corner when it is cold, verses the cock that is outside crowing letting the world know he is there. Kill the first, and breed the second. If a cock's comb is turning blue in the heat, and the one in the next pen is bright red and he looks like he has not missed a beat . . . . These minor differences sometimes become apparent when the weather etc. is less than ideal.

There should be some variability to see. If I understand correctly, one of mine is the sire. It is a new outcross so it will give you some variability. In time, you will see it.

If you have a Standard . . . read it over and again. Compare the word selections with that of other breeds in the class. By comparing, you can develop a better frame of reference. Use this picture.. . . Understand their type, and why they have the type. The type is for a reason, and the two goes together.



Post some pictures when they are about 24wks old. Profile shots. We can try to help you keep from making any glaring color mistakes while you get the type in your head.

As you get this in your head, then start trying to learn the color. It is an easy color to get the fundamentals of, but not an easy color to perfect. Unless the color is largely perfected, and for us, it is not.

Just worry about type this year. Become familiar with the tail angle, the lift , the top line, the underline, the front end, the depth of keel, the width, that the width carries through, the shanks, the width between the legs, that they are level. That the legs are centered up on the body. There is a lot to get in your mind's eye with type alone.

One thing at a time.

You picked a good breed to start with. An over looked breed, and now an overlooked strain. They are good birds. Beautiful if person, easy to work with, hatch well, have reasonable growth rates, lay better than many, and are an over all join to own.

Thanks again. It seems I have been mixing thrift and vigor and looking at the qualities of each as one in the same.

I did order a SOP from teh APA about 2 weeks ago. I still have not received it, nor have we gotten a shipping email. Paypal statement is all I have to go off of.

Yes, Luanne said she was using one of your birds. She toe punched the chicks she sent. Some are German crossed with your sire, and some are 100% German. I can find differences at this point, but they are very subtle.

Should I start marking the larger, more mature birds at this point? Or just wait another month or two and just choose by type alone? Type by strain, or flock as a whole?

 

[gjensen]

In homesteading, I would think that foraging abilities would count for quite a lot in poultry, and that predator protection would be a pretty high priority too.
How do NHs stand on these qualities?
What breeds rate highly in these areas?

The reality is that predator protection is our responsibility. Everything eats chicken, and they are very low on the food chain. The only physical advantage that a bird can have is the ability to fly and escape ground predators. Otherwise they are poorly equipped. Game breeds are better suited for this than some others.

How they forage is as much about how you manage them as it is about their inclination to forage. Both matters. If their feeders are kept full, and they are only let out semi regularly, they are not going far. If you withhold feed until the evenings, they are encouraged to forage more assertively. Management requires that we know what they need, and what they have available to them.

NHs should be good foragers as most large dual purpose breeds should be. But this is as much or more about strain than it is breed. Animals change fast in the hands of their breeders.

Lighter breeds like Leghorns, Anconas, etc. are better for rustling up more of their own and escaping predation because they can fly. They are active, assertive foragers, and are vigilant. Even hyper vigilant according to some. None of the accepted American breeds fit this mold being larger and heavier. The closest being the Dominique.

It depends on what your view of a homestead is. Everyone has a different picture.

 

[father time]

i would certainly like to find australorps that lay as many eggs as they are labeled . i have had them three different times from different places over the years and would not call them anything but average or under. while having everything else from temperment and looks but still average to poor layers. i own a few different breeds that are better but still looking for good austrolorps.

 

[gjensen]

Thanks again. It seems I have been mixing thrift and vigor and looking at the qualities of each as one in the same.

I did order a SOP from teh APA about 2 weeks ago. I still have not received it, nor have we gotten a shipping email. Paypal statement is all I have to go off of.

Yes, Luanne said she was using one of your birds. She toe punched the chicks she sent. Some are German crossed with your sire, and some are 100% German. I can find differences at this point, but they are very subtle.

Should I start marking the larger, more mature birds at this point? Or just wait another month or two and just choose by type alone? Type by strain, or flock as a whole?

I think the two terms should be mixed use. My opinion.

The SOP will be helpful to you.

I would want to know who the larger more mature birds were at this point, but only for additional consideration. In my start, I would not want to lose anything I needed moving forward. They are a sum of their parts, so I would be looking for those pieces and parts. That is the way my brain works. I would want to know what I had.
Knowing what I do know, and what I do not know, I would raise them all up. I would evaluate them once they had finished and could see what I had.

You may see some vigor between mine and her birds. That may explain rates, but is not solely and simply inheritance. I would not want to disregard one that was not a cross for that reason. Then my birds did average larger, but were oversized. Hers was large enough. I would even say that mine were too large. Then it was my opinion that some of her birds had better color. If they were smaller, but big enough, and had better color . . . I might want to use him or her.
Do you see where I am going? I am saying raise them up and let us see what advantages and disadvantages you might have. Let's see if we can put together a couple pairs or so together that might give you a good start. It also would not hurt to a couple that were the two of our birds crossed, and a couple that were from me etc. That variability might help moving forward. I was needing some variability to make more progress with color.
Next year is a different matter. This year is a start.

Let me say this. If your birds tend to be oversized at maturity, you can spare some size. It may not hurt you to use a good typed bird or god colored bird with less size, providing the bird was large enough.

 

[gjensen]

i would certainly like to find australorps that lay as many eggs as they are labeled . i have had them three different times from different places over the years and would not call them anything but average or under. while having everything else from temperment and looks but still average to poor layers. i own a few different breeds that are better but still looking for good austrolorps.

What kind of numbers are you looking for, and what has been your experience?

 

[ronott1]

i would certainly like to find australorps that lay as many eggs as they are labeled . i have had them three different times from different places over the years and would not call them anything but average or under. while having everything else from temperment and looks but still average to poor layers. i own a few different breeds that are better but still looking for good austrolorps.

http://www.sagehenfarmlodi.com/chooks/chooks.html

They are not listed as being the best layer. They are not the worst. The problem is the hype about the 365 day egg layer from 1900. That was not reality even then.

You need to look at breed average. Did you get on average 4 eggs a week during laying season? If so, you had normal laying australorps.

Notice that they usually lay a medium size egg too. Mine lay large eggs though.