Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[gojira]

I realise I probably came on a bit strongly in the last post. My apologies—someone should take my keyboard away when I am a crank like today.


Which term?



That much I agree with for sure. I am not asking for a handout; only for how not to be those you look down on for not following the already trodden paths. What would you suggest as a thorough means of verification? Some things are difficult to prove through breeding in one's own birds. Since the APA is behind the times, are there particular sources that have stood out among the "various books and journals" you mentioned as having up-to-date information? The Poultry Press? I am relying on articles from my chosen breed club's newsletters along with some books that have been passed around as educational. Some things such as the aforementioned The Call of the Hen aren't feasible to test on the scale that the average person raises and breeds birds on... which, by the way, I am most interested in newer information on that topic [egg production] but have yet to find any in my searches.

The term i***t. I don't want to type it out just for someone to say I said it.

Once again, I suggest common sense, knowledge, and experience. Read current books and journals. I am not sure The Poultry Press is a step up ftom APA literature, unless you want to see show reports. I am not sure much is gained from breed club newsletters other than show reports. Which books are being passed around as educational? My suggestions are frowned upon by the APA and breed clubs. Keep that in mind before you drcide to read anything i suggest. Look at Poultry Science, British Poultry Science, International Journal of Poultry Science, Journal of Applied Poultry Research, etc. If you want to look at egg production, look at Avian Physiology edited by Sturkie. What exactly are you wanting to learn about? What breed/variety do you raise? The Call of the Hen can be used in a small flock, but it is very outdated.

 

[BantyChooks]

The term i***t. I don't want to type it out just for someone to say I said it.

Once again, I suggest common sense, knowledge, and experience. Read current books and journals. I am not sure The Poultry Press is a step up ftom APA literature, unless you want to see show reports. I am not sure much is gained from breed club newsletters other than show reports. Which books are being passed around as educational? Look at Poultry Science, International Journal of Poultry Science, etc. If you want to look at egg production, look at Avian Physiology edited by Sturkie. What exactly are you wanting to learn about? What breed/variety do you raise? The Call of the Hen can be used in a small flock, but it is very outdated.

Don't worry, I don't play that dirty. No, you didn't say it, but that was the impression I got from your posts here and in general across the forum.

The first one off the top of my head is Creative Poultry Breeding by W.C. Carefoot, which I am currently trying to get my hands on.

Thank you, that was very helpful and I will look into those places. I am interested in further research on traits associated with higher vigour and egg production (such as head shape, slant of back, pelvic width, etcetera) as well as information on stippled and pencilled varieties such as more data behind the thoughts that shafting in the female body is what shows up in males as shafting in the sex feathers, or male traits that are indicative of potential to throw better pencilled daughters. That is, without turning the operation to one of double mating. Balance between the sexes is something that's just going to be a decades long learning experience for me with no way around it. The current slice of information that I am chasing for verification (or debunking) is the assertion that breeding in tighter feathers is connected to an increase in egg production. I'd also like to know if vaulted skulls cause stupidity via brain malformation in crested breeds or if they can be bred to be slightly more intelligent, but that's probably more of a wandering question I'd be best off trying to find the answer to in my own breeding pens. I gather that most don't really care if they have chickens less intelligent than the average office stapler or not.

Genetics is one of the next topics I will be exploring, and when I do, the first specifics I want to find out about are the aforementioned pencilled and stippled varieties.

Partridge Chanteclers are my main interest and focus with Silver Ameraucanas on the side. I also have a small group of White Leghorn hens which I have used to test for myself some of the points in the old egg production literature, and I found that the best layers did indeed match those descriptions given. It's quite a fascinating area to learn in.

Chantecler Fanciers International is a well run breed club (in my opinion) with more informative articles and images than it does show reports. That is the extent of my experience with clubs so I cannot compare to other places from more than just what I hear others say. I will be joining one of the Ameraucana clubs shortly in the hopes it will be as useful to me as CFI has been. If not, well, that was 10 bucks of a learning experience. Even if I, in the end, decide that the APA is right for whatever reason, I still don't think sticking one's head into the sand in terms of opposing literature is a good idea either, eh? Thank you.

 

[gojira]

Don't worry, I don't play that dirty. No, you didn't say it, but that was the impression I got from your posts here and in general across the forum.

The first one off the top of my head is Creative Poultry Breeding by W.C. Carefoot, which I am currently trying to get my hands on.

Thank you, that was very helpful and I will look into those places. I am interested in further research on traits associated with higher vigour and egg production (such as head shape, slant of back, pelvic width, etcetera) as well as information on stippled and pencilled varieties such as more data behind the thoughts that shafting in the female body is what shows up in males as shafting in the sex feathers, or male traits that are indicative of potential to throw better pencilled daughters. That is, without turning the operation to one of double mating. Balance between the sexes is something that's just going to be a decades long learning experience for me with no way around it. The current slice of information that I am chasing for verification (or debunking) is the assertion that breeding in tighter feathers is connected to an increase in egg production. I'd also like to know if vaulted skulls cause stupidity via brain malformation in crested breeds or if they can be bred to be slightly more intelligent, but that's probably more of a wandering question I'd be best off trying to find the answer to in my own breeding pens. I gather that most don't really care if they have chickens less intelligent than the average office stapler or not.

Genetics is one of the next topics I will be exploring, and when I do, the first specifics I want to find out about are the aforementioned pencilled and stippled varieties.

Partridge Chanteclers are my main interest and focus with Silver Ameraucanas on the side. I also have a small group of White Leghorn hens which I have used to test for myself some of the points in the old egg production literature, and I found that the best layers did indeed match those descriptions given. It's quite a fascinating area to learn in.

Chantecler Fanciers International is a well run breed club (in my opinion) with more informative articles and images than it does show reports. That is the extent of my experience with clubs so I cannot compare to other places from more than just what I hear others say. I will be joining one of the Ameraucana clubs shortly in the hopes it will be as useful to me as CFI has been. If not, well, that was 10 bucks of a learning experience. Even if I, in the end, decide that the APA is right for whatever reason, I still don't think sticking one's head into the sand in terms of opposing literature is a good idea either, eh? Thank you.

I have never read Carefoot's book. I would've to one day just to see what is in it. Brereton seems to think a lot of it, and he does not seem very knowledgeable about genetics, so not sure. Hutt's book is good.

Those traits (head shape, slant of back, width of pelvis, etc.) have no impact on vigor or egg production. Those were either wild guesses, or marketing ploys. Why would tight feathers impact egg production? Of that were true, Malays and Cornish would be the highest egg producers. I think vaulted skulls impacting intelligence is a myth also, most likely to get people to avoid breeding vaulted skulls. I have silkies that are vaulted and non vaulted, and that makes no difference.

I have partridge patterns in a few breeds.

A lot of what you read about correlation of traits and egg production are old wive's tales. Some can tell you which hen is most productive at a given moment, but not over the course of a year, or her lifetime.

 

[BantyChooks]

Hutt's book is good.

Good to know.

Avian Physiology edited by Sturkie

6th edition?

 

[gojira]

6th edition?

I have the 4th edition. I have not looked at the later editions. I know some books are not considered as good under different authors or editors, even if the contain more up to date information. I will warn you that it is very scientific, and goes into the mechanisms behind egg production. It may not be very practical, but it would show one how far off some of the old wive's tales that are still going around are.

 

[BantyChooks]

I have the 4th edition. I have not looked at the later editions. I know some books are not considered as good under different authors or editors, even if the contain more up to date information. I will warn you that it is very scientific, and goes into the mechanisms behind egg production. It may not be very practical, but it would show one how far off some of the old wive's tales that are still going around are.

Thank you, and I appreciate the warning. I am willing to take the time to slog through that type of stuff if it gives clarification on the topic.

Why would tight feathers impact egg production? Of that were true, Malays and Cornish would be the highest egg producers.

I probably should have added that when I read that I thought it was off the wall, but I have a (perhaps unfortunate) tendency to try and find the logistics behind those types of things. Nobody believes something that doesn't make sense to them, and even if that bit of sense is based off flawed understanding, it often leaves me richer for trying to understand their thoughts. That is why I am trying to find the original reasoning behind it, because it struck me as weird.

 

[BantyChooks]

I ordered Avian Physiology tonight. I got a used copy of the 4th edition because it is $120 cheaper than any format of the newer.

 

[gojira]

I ordered Avian Physiology tonight. I got a used copy of the 4th edition because it is $120 cheaper than any format of the newer.

Are you in the UK? Here, in the US, the 4th and 6th editions run about the same, just over $100. I bought a first edition of Hutt's book from the UK because it was cheaper, even with shipping, if you can even find it in the US.

 

[BantyChooks]

Are you in the UK? Here, in the US, the 4th and 6th editions run about the same, just over $100. I bought a first edition of Hutt's book from the UK because it was cheaper, even with shipping, if you can even find it in the US.

No, I'm in North America. I got lucky and found one on resale for a low price. That is why I got it now instead of waiting a while—if I let that one go I would have had to pay the full price. All other listings were quite a bit more expensive.

I did wonder if it was a scam, even though it seemed legitimate and eBay has a good refund policy. My rule is generally "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" but I figured I'd take the risk.

I doubt I'll have the same luck with Genetics of the Fowl so I will be trying to find it through interlibrary loan first.

 

[gojira]

No, I'm in North America. I got lucky and found one on resale for a low price. That is why I got it now instead of waiting a while—if I let that one go I would have had to pay the full price. All other listings were quite a bit more expensive.

I did wonder if it was a scam, even though it seemed legitimate and eBay has a good refund policy. My rule is generally "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" but I figured I'd take the risk.

I doubt I'll have the same luck with Genetics of the Fowl so I will be trying to find it through interlibrary loan first.

Genetics of the Fowl can be viewed online, but I like to have the actual book. There is a paperback reprint, but I like hardback, and it costs about as much as a first edition anyway. I have good luck buying books on eBay.