Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[Yellow House Farm]

Greetings All, I jumped on to tell you about a book I received in the mail today: Talking Chicken by Kelly Klober. It's published by Acres USA with the ISBN: 978-1-601730-21-3

I've read the first 77 pages so far. The best recent book on heritage poultry yet. I think you'll like it.

PS: Haiku, awesome meat question, but my eyes are tired...

I think I should turn in for now.

 

[Robert Blosl]

Quote:
Thanks, YFH, Australorp was in the wrong spot, but what about La Fleche (ALBC didn't say)? What's their expected lay rate? Here's what I got from ALBC and a couple of other random sites, I'd love to hear what the corrections are!

Breed, Egg production, Broodiness, Market Weight
Dark Cornish, 50-80 eggs per year, non setters, 4.5-6.5 lbs
New Hampshire, 120-150, setter, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Buckeye, 120-150, setter, 5.5-8 lbs
Cubalaya 125-175, setters, 3-4.5 lbs
Red or Silver Grey Dorking, 150, setters, 6-8 lbs
Java, 150, setters, 6.5-8 lbs
La Fleche, 150-200 (?), non setters, 5.5-7 lbs
Catalana, 150, non setters, 5-6.5 lbs
Delaware, 150-200, setters, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Jersey Giants, 175-185, 8-11 lbs
Orpington 175-200, setters, 7-8.5 lbs
Wyandotte, 180-200, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Sussex, 200, setters, 6-7.5 lbs
Plymouth Rock, 200 +, setters, 6-8 lbs
Rhode Island Red, 250 +, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Australorp, 250+, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Dominique, 230-275, 4-6 lbs

Boy this list seems off.I never saw a Plymouth rock or a rhode island red that lay-ed what they are saying. They must be talking about production birds.

I line breed the hell out of my reds and rocks and there is now way I could get numbers like this.

Let me Tell you if you want to raise Heritage breeds from a private breeder who breeds for preserving the blood lines and the breed you will find no one who sells 25 or 100 chicks. Only hatchery's can do this or some one like Urch.

Guys like me may be able to sell a few eggs or ten started chicks but on the whole most good breeders are not sharing their birds with new folks. WHY.

When they go back in say three years the birds are most of the time gone.

They might sell you some breeding stock but on the whole the feed back I am getting is I breed for myself the shipping of eggs and the hatches are poor and most of the time they are. No one has enough birds to sell 25 chicks and if they do they are flock mating them.

If you want lots of eggs from Heritage breeds that are breed by a hand full of breeders per breed you are not going to see many eggs or chicks sold.

I have just realized this after working hard to push this Heritage thing. I am going to start a list of old breeders going back 30 years to see who still has their lines.

You would be heart broken if you found out that a breeder in 20 years sold 1000 or 2000 chicks and today there are no one who maintained their line or maybe just one person.

I do not know why people who get heritage fowl can not stay with them but I think that many want the results of production from the Hatchery chicken which is not a Heritage fowl.

The average person can not make the difference between a hatchery red and a real Rhode Island Red or a Production barred Rock and the Original Barred Rock. It seems they dont have the patients for the slow grothand the lack 200 plus eggs you think you should be getting. In all honesty we should be trying to keep the blood lines going so the breed does not die out. That is why there is so few people to share birds with you as we have no true breeders left any more. bob

 

[Jake Levi]

You are right on Bob.

We need more breeders of chickens, instead of just keeping a hodgepodge of different colored birds, to appreciate a breed and to keep it producing, even if its just a dozen hens is a far more productive achievement then keeping a dozen assorted birds.

I can understand the average persons interest in the varieties of chickens, but, if more people dont start keeping pure strains of heritage chickens then we wont have any, its as simple as that.

 

[spartacus_63]

You would be heart broken if you found out that a breeder in 20 years sold 1000 or 2000 chicks and today there are no one who maintained their line or maybe just one person.

I may be off on this but if there is a desire to preserve the old breeds, then the few that have them must be willing to breed for preservation and have a plan to distribute their line. It seems it is a bit of having your cake and eating it too. To get good birds out to folks that are interested in continuing the heritage lines, it can not be left up to those looking for birds. There has to be an effort by those that have good birds AND a desire to see their line continued. I would think with modern technology that a little mentor-ship and feedback could be maintained for those with interest.

If there is only one breeder still breeding your line of birds after 20 years, that is one more than if you didn't provide chicks to those with a desire. Also, IMHO, it is the genetics that are the key to preservation, not the ability to select and cull for line traits.​

 

[JoAnn_WI_4-H_Mom]

A question: Bantam breeds, how did they fit into the heritage/homesteading picture and is any one working on bringing them back to that work, rather than just show and pet uses?


On the issues of long term breeding programs....

It can be very difficult to keep at poultry raising and improvement for decades. Right now I have two 4-H boys, who are having a great time time sampling different breeds. I see them starting to settle on breeds of choice.

The best way to keep them interested is to get started with really good stock, so they see some success in the competitions (hey, our fair is full of people who understand it is about more than the feathers)

However, I know the boys will go off to college, and the DH (who is a wonderful and very patient man) will not want to be burdened with birds while the boys are away. This is already distressing to me (who waited 15 years for DH to give his blessings to acquiring poultry), but I can see it is the way it will be.

So I am afraid we would be one of those families that might get some nice birds of a rare-ish line, just to drop the breeding program down the line, disappointing our original supplier.

I guess I am apologizing in advance for what I suspect will happen.

My hope is that we can pass our improved birds to another 4-H family in the area when the time comes.

I also hope, that by interesting them in poultry during their youth, that when they are adults and have places of their own, they may take up raising their favored breed of chicken again. From that standpoint, I believe heritage breeders helping us get started will improve poultry breeds future chances.

Both of the boys are very interested in production qualities and genetics. The eldest is setting up his Buckeye Rooster over Delaware Hens for a Red Sex-Link experiment, to exhibit at our fair how improved production crosses can be produced from separate, sustainable, pure/true breeding flocks when you mix them up a bit. Netiher boy is impressed with industrial meat strains habits of only eating and squating.

 

[cybercat]

I think what Bob meant, is why sell chicks or eggs to someone that will drop them in 2 to 3 years to move one to the next big chicken craze. Heritage fowl right now is hot. Many want in on it without truely understanding what it means. The slow growth is a big thing for those that want to cull first year and can not. Those that want a meat bird can not handle the wait or lighter carcase. They are too use to store bought and want that type of chicken.

Many just do not want to breed. Thay want the heritage chicken for lawn fowl. They hear that the best place to get the real thing is a breeder and then they lie to get it. I am not saying everyone here just a few will say that they want to breed and maybe show and do not. Fact is one needs a rooster to breed and many do not want or can not have a rooster.

Breeders do what they do because they love a breed. They do not do it too make money or distrubte it. That is a hatchery not a breeder. There are breeders that sell chicks to hatcheries, Privet is one that I know uses breeders. Most breeders do show and do not want to sell to public because they might sell that one winning bird. Again if you talk to one long enough they might sell you a few chicks or started birds if they think you will truely work with them. They have to know the SOP and most will not be bothered to even buy it.

This is why is it so hard to get chicks from a good breeder.

 

[spartacus_63]

This is why is it so hard to get chicks from a good breeder.

That was my point. Either you are interested in continuing a breed or not. That goes for the breeder and those looking to breed or raise. If the two do not come together at some point with some volume then the SQ heritage breeds are certain for extinction. Since a breeder has no control over his eggs or chicks after the sale it is only his responsibility to sell a quality (as advertised) product. If they are unwilling to market their breed, then more will end up in the same place Bob's line is. It's hard to increase the volume of a commodity without a specific market trend.

A breeder of show birds is not going to sell his top picks, but even the culls have the same DNA as his champions.

My only interest in heritage breeds is their function. I breed for my goals understanding that many poultrymen of old spent countless hours figuring out what makes a breed preform. Many of these discoveries have been proven with modern techniques. Anyone serious about raising poultry for anything other than the novelty should determine their goals and how to best achieve those goals prior to beginning.​

 

[Yellow House Farm]

There's also a middle ground with chick sales. This coming Sunday will begin what will be weekly hatches until the first week of May, but then we're done. These hatches are for our farm. All chicks thereafter are for customers.

Some breeders might just keep hatching, but a lot like to begin at a point and end at a point, and not a chick is sold from those hatches. So, we just received two requests for chicks in the mail. One is requestion ASAP the other wants them in April. Neither is possible. If they are unable to wait until May, I'll simply return the check.

Bob, the lack of strain retention is very sad. I would be so choffed to discover an old-school breeder of White Dorkings. I like to soak in old-school chicken talk like a good wine....alas...

A question, though, do you think it was always this way, or do yu think it is symptomatic of the last four decades, which have seen the abandonment of just about everything?

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Quick thoughts on meat.....

The traditional designations for chicken are age groups, and they fit perfectly with the progression of the breeding season and the type of cookery that is desired for each season.

Broilers are 8-13 weeks old. You slaughter pluck and spatchcock. Spatchcocking makes dressing the chicken almost as easy as doing a rabbit. It's easy easy easy. Bada Bing. No harder than fileting a fish. Depending on the recipe you're following, you either flatten the whole bird out like a pancake or halve the bird. These broil up easily. It's a quick cooking preparation and rather convenient for that rush meal after work. We use them often. Broilers will range between 3/4 and 1 1/2 lbs depending on the breed. We split one Dorking broiler between the two of us. At first you might think it's a small portion, but remember, we, as a people, eat way too much eat. We have found that heritage poultry is a doorway to proper portion size. We knew heritage poultry was good for the heart, but know we know it's good for the heart! We do a bunch up on the grill when friends come over. They're great with homemade BBQ sauce.

By definition, fryers are 14-20 weeks old, but I really prefer to do them at 16 weeks. Again, spatchcock. Pretty much, if you're not going to roast a bird whole, it's easier to spatchcock it right then and there. These are what a heritage chicken fry is for! Unfortunately, being an Italian-American from New England, I don't have the apparent genetic knack for making up a proper flour dip; so, we don't do this a lot because I don't like my crust. Still, the tenderness is excellent, and if you can rob the Colonel's recipe, here's your bird. Also, this age group is also great for the grill, but I am careful to keep it at 300F or a tad less. This is a traditional, slow BBQ, and it's mighty good.

Most breeds are at their roaster peak between 20 and 24 weeks. Some texts will say up to a year, but that makes me a little nervous. The older a roaster is, the better one's roasting 6th sense needs to be to get it to the point of tenderness without drying out. Our choice Dorking roaster age is 24 weeks. After 30 weeks, we will not sell it. We don't want to risk a "new to heritage poultry" customer having a bad experience. There's covered roasting and rack roasting, or dry roasting. Covered roasting is by far the easier. All you need is an old cast-iron Dutch oven (with lid!) or one of the old black with white speckling covered roaster that your Nonna had. These pans are made for heritage fowl. Slather the bird with olive oil, butter, or bacon grease. In a small bowl prepared a salt, pepper, and herb rub. Massage it firmly into the skin of the greased bird. Sprinkle the extra into the body cavity. Place the bird in the oven add a cup or two of wine (or broth or even water). Cover the pan with the lid. Roast in a 325F oven for 25 mins per pound--really--take the exact weight in pounds, multiply by 25 minutes, stick it in the oven, set the timer, and walk away. These pans are self-basting so you don't have to do a thing. When the timer goes off, remove it. Let it rest a few minutes, and then carve. If you stuff the bird increase it to 30 minutes per pound. For the two of us, we serve up the legs and save the breast for later sandwiches, salads, etc....

A stewing fowl, or poularde, can be stewed whole for soup and stew, or quartered for coq au vin, fricassee, pollo al cacciatore, etc...

All carcasses are made into stock, which we freeze by the quart. Stock is amazing and a bedrock ingredient for Continental cooking. I'll do a posting about it later, but sufficed to say that it's uses transcend soup.

What all of this comes down to is that meat is muscle, and it does in death what it did in life. Stresses cause the meat to flex or tighten, just like the way your shoulders get all bunched up when you're strung out. Heat, especially dry heat like BBQ, is a stressor. It causes the muscles to flex, or tighten. A broiler is so young that it is essentially a weak bird, even if the high heat is a stressor, the bird is not strong enough to become what we would call "tough." This is why store bought chicken is never tough--dry? perhaps, but never tough. No matter how big it make be, it's always a broiler even if they market it as a roaster. Remember it is age and not size that designates the cookery. This is why, though, I put the warning about the fryer on the grill. It is older and exposed to heat much over 300F on the grill and it's going to flex or get tough. The older the bird is, the wetter the preparation becomes until you're retired layers and cock-birds need a jacuzzi to relax. Think about it; that's what a stewing pot is--a culinary jacuzzi.

FREEZE! Let's think about this word...tough. Tough means strong. What it comes down to is that heirtage fowl are able-bodied. They are strong, healthy and vibrant, with good muscle tone. All of the above cookery designations are proof of human ingenuity and how we've come to live along side heritage fowl over centuries of human experience....all the way up until the 60's and then BAM! In the name of cheap convenience, we have destroyed the variety of our cookery. Why? the older a bird is, the stronger, the healthier, the more flavorful it becomes....no joke. There's a whole lot more flavor in a roaster than a broiler. And a truly older hen or cock should have dark meat so dark that when you're quartering it, it almost looks like beef under chicken skin--pure flavor. But--it must be prepared properly. This is what coq au vin really means--rooster in wine. Why? Because a strong old rooster needs a wine jacuzzi simmer to be tender. It will always be more toothsome than a broiler, but it will be tender, indeed, with onions and mushrooms and red wine.

Something I always stress when I give talks on poultry cookery: there is no such think as tough meat!!!! There is only bad cooking! Any meat can be rendered tender, and we used to do it all the time. That's what heritage cookery is all about. If your chicken is tough, it isn't cooked right--period. But with practice, it's perfect.

White meat is muscle rarely used. Dark meat is muscle often used; it's well lubricated (oily) for fluid flexing. Ducks and Geese are built for long distance flight and constant swimming = all dark meat. Chickens and turkeys only fly up and down from their nighty roost with only the occasional short burst to avoid a predator. However, they walk and scratch and run everywhere = white breast meat and dark leg meat. Industrial chickens and turkeys can't move = all white meat. (Can you say gross! So lameness is good for something

So, birds without muscle-tone are what is healthy for us and our families

Don't worry, the unelected civil servants at the FDA will do anything to make the unable-bodied meat the exclusive poultry availabe to american families

Think about this the next time you bite into an industrial chiken leg or thigh and the meat is almost white. That bird wasn't walking much, if at all

It's amazing that marketing and cheapness can dupe us into eating what is essentially and obviously unhealthy

Go USDA Inspection!

 

[Robert Blosl]

Quote:
I think you hit the nail on the head. I have people write me wanting to get a rare breed of fowl that may only have say 50 birds alive today in the USA. I go to thiere name on this board and then I see they are talking on other threads about how they cant wait to get thier chicks in from the hatchery. The have no desire to breed and keep a old true line of fowl going. To them its like me with fishing lures. I got so many of them I dont even use them.

Its not about not mentoring these people. You can tell them not to do this or that and they wont listen to you then their birds turn into color culls and they give them up.

They will not just listen.

In the case of the young boys going off to school and keeping thier chickens for them it is hard. Very seldom does youth stay with their birds one in a thousand maybe. Most of us like me come back when we are about 40 years of age or older.

However, the seeds of enjoyment as a youth showing your birds and talking to the great breeders will spark them to come back in the later years. That is why the youth programs are so important to the hobby of Heritage Poultry.

There was a old Rhode Island Red bantam fellow who told me O he was a here today gone tomorrow customer. They had his bantams for two or three years and gae up with him. His banatms at one time where the best around. Today no one can say they have his strain. I have them in my Red Bantams but my Red Bantams where breed down from Large Fowl 23 years ago. Bantams do make a good fowl for the back yarder mostly the dual purpose kind. bob