Feeding with mealworms as the only protein source

[U_Stormcrow]

So... My name got thrown around this thread a bunch. Thanks, my ego doesn't need the trip. I've only been at this 18 1/2 months now. My current flock is in the Sig below. I've done nothing any other person willing to invest the time reading, with a decent background in math and science, couldn't do. With that understanding, and in no particular order, because I haven't finished my coffee.

Most of the studies are not by "big Ag", but rather by "big China", who is desperately worried about feeding their population. The "big Ag" studies here in the US were largely in the late 60s, 70s, 80s. More recent studies demonstrate that our increasingly skilled efforts at breeding better birds have resulted in higher rates of lay, higher feed efficiency, and lessened mortality than even 30 years ago, and with increased nutritional needs. Which shouldn't surprise anyone. Some of the best studies on cutting edge amino acid balance are coming out of the EU, where they make use of lower protein feeds, supplimented with synthetic amino acids. Some of the best "backyard" studies - that is, raising modern birds without modern feeds, or with local crops, are coming out of India right now (also desperately worried about feeding their population). You should read them.

Any comparison between birds 100 years ago and today is like comparing ocean going navigation by sextant with GPS.

I place no value on Organic. or non-GMO. or non-Soy. or Vegan. The fact is, the world's population couldn't survive without modern farming methods, nor could we live as we do with heavily concentrated population centers driving the world economy. In the main, I find those preaching such ideals to have taken the precautionary principle way to far, or to have failed to consider the consequences of their preferred policy choices. Nevertheless, my main egg buyer is willing to pay a premium for non-GMO fed birds, so that's what I feed them. Ultimately, its not for me to tell you how to spend your money, but I am happy to talk about the little I know regarding poultry nutrition.

Re: claims of massive egg production from free range flocks. I don't believe you. Re: 2 eggs a week from old birds scavenging - yep, sounds about right, and in line with expectations of the mid 1900s. My own birds, under my management methods, are producing roughly twice that* (more currently, but I have yet to see how "winter" affects rate of lay for this generation, which could substantialy alter their average annual rate)

I happen to live in one of the most forgiving climates in the US. We average over an inch of rainfall weekly, and have a rediculously long growing season. I'm USDA zone 8a. My birds free range, all day (I rarely close their run or coop, except for hurricanes). They have 1.75A of "pasture" plus another roughly 2 3/4A of hardwood hammock, plus more "pasture" when they duck the electric fence and follow me to where I'm building my home. You can read about (incomplete) my "pasture" here. It saves me, seasonally, between about 15% and 35% on my feed bill. If I tilled the soil with heavy equipment, and engaged in deliberate plantings, I could likely bend the curve further, but not enough to cover the cost of maintaining the equipment.

You can also read about my efforts to cull my way into a bird well suited for my land, management, and conditions. It starts with lowering expectations.

No secrets here (apart from my name and exact location). While I value my privacy, I intend that others might learn from my mistakes. ...and I've made plenty.

For the typical backyard owner, of the typical backyard flock, with typical backyard conditions, offering a complete ration of an All Flock/Flock Raiser type feed, with free choice oyster shell in a seperate dish, all their lives, for all your birds, provides the simplest and most nutritionally beneficial feed program for your flock. While you are welcome to do otherwise - I obviously do - best that decision be an informed one, and that you be willing to accept the consequences of those choices.

The more I learn about feeding chickens, the more I become convinced that efforts to "homebrew" a feed solution involve more hope and prayer than reason and science, nor will it likely save you any money. Its an undertaking to embark on only if you have no other practical choice. Or, if you are blessed with an abundance of resources you wish to use very inefficiently.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

How big is your chicken run and do they have access to fresh grass? I would look more into incorporating more forage opportunity into your run before I changed their diet that drastically. I plant comfrey (about 19% protein) around my bird pens. Yesterday, I sowed peas (20% protein), broccoli, and buckwheat heavily around the chicken run to give them a winter buffet. If you Google it or even poke around BYC, there is a lot of info on how to plant inside the chicken run too.

I have 9 chickens in a 16x30 planted run. They get about 2.5 cups of soaked/fermented whole grain feed in the morning. This is about one cup worth of dry feed. I get a 40 lb bag for $39. At a cup a day, it lasts for quite some time.

There is a 5-gallon (25 lb capacity) feeder of non-gmo layer pellets in the coop that they have 24/7 access to. It only goes down about an inch or less per day, so I only put maybe 6 lbs of food in it for the week.

I also have a high protein, omega-3 green fodder system going. The mix is mainly buckwheat, millet, flax, clover, but I bulk it up in winter with peas, broccoli, alfalfa and whatever I can grow quickly/cheaply in cooler weather as my main mix doesn't grow as well below 65 degrees. They get a shoebox sized tray every day. It helps save the grass when they have some other green stuff to peck at. I'm about to change my fodder process to double the amount they get.

They're constantly scratching for bugs and nibbling the plants. I throw them my vegetable scraps and they get a dried mealworms snack in the afternoon. Sometimes I add fresh chopped produce to their morning wet food. Last night I made zucchini and acorn squash so the squash seeds and some chopped zucchini made it to their bowl. Some people make a hardware cloth composter next to or in the chicken run that allows the chickens to get extra bugs that fall out.

In short, fermenting the food stretches it out and makes the nutrients more digestible. Kitchen scraps add some fresh food and diversity to the diet. Enough green space will encourage the chickens to forage for their own food. Packing it with nutritious vegetation will ensure a healthy selection.

Also, I get the best deal on non-GMO pellets at chewy.com. They have some options for whole grain fermenting, but I like Scratch and Peck for that. My egg quality is the highest on S&P ferment, and I get the best deal on it from Azure Standard.

Justin Rhodes on Abundant Permaculture has a lot of info on his website for how to stretch feed and make chickens eat "naturally". The maggot bucket was a bit much lol but I've used a lot of his other recommendations. He says if the chickens eat more than 1/4 lb per bird of commercial feed each week, then it's time to cut back.

Be aware that those protein levels are dry weight. As fed, the levels are much lower. So don't put too much feed value on having that suppliment available to them. OTOH, the bulk of those feedstuffs, not being dried and concentrated, means your birds will be lass able to gorge and imbalance their diet.

Think of those things primarily as "enrichment" (not dietary, but rather primarily entertainment), and you've the right mindset.

Otherwise, I'm in broad agreement that a selection of forage of numerous types - grasses, grains, legumes, herbs, cruciferous - available seasonally is far superior to any monoculture you might offer.

Oh, and J Rhodes homebrew feed is, nutritionally, pretty damned good (though variable based on the actual analysis of your ingredients). Its a damned sight better than anything "Garden Betty" has to offer. J Rhodes formula, btw, has more than passing resemblance to the feed formulas of mid last century, updated with some modern ingredients.

 

[equustears]

I’m thinking chickens in previous years were rotated out of the flock faster. Hens weren’t kept , once they began to slow down in laying , they became dinner. I feel we are currently having our chickens in backyards as egg layers but also as pets and eating them is not an option . Granted their are farms still raising birds for eggs and dinner but they also focus on putting meat on their birds or getting high yield egg production which both need a balanced specific diet.
In older days Family farms I don’t feel what was best for the birds was considered. What was cost efficient and kept them alive is what was practiced and also the feed from mills was purchased mostly local not shipped in from overseas or the other side of the US and better quality no gmo available not a lot of pesticides etc. Today we care about the best for birds practice but unfortunately we pay Big Corp for the feed not the local feed mills. I would never have thought of paying $42/bag for goose feed and now my chicken pellets are nearing $20/bag. And duck feed as well and we all know how ducks eat feed!! It’s become a very expensive life love . I’ve begun scrambling eggs and feeding them to my dogs and hens as extra protein . I’ve also begun using fodder pans for extra nutrition in winter as soon as I close coops for snow.
just my thoughts

 

[natalie327]

Once my chickens hit 2 yrs old they are 100% free range, not allowed in the run. I still have them a roost and nest box. I pick 15-20 eggs weekly off of the 8 free rangers rite now. I do not feed them anything. Have a few that are over 5 yrs old. Save your money & let nature take its course.

every year i rotate out. I buy or incubate at least 3 times a yr.. keep 15-20 in a large 25x25 run, they free range Saturday & sunday all day

10-15 is my normal for free range but i had a hawk & owl have a field day couple weeks ago.

impressive! where do you live? i live in an old established neighborhood in austin, tx and although my hens eat plenty from being out and about all day, they are stil hungry for their breakfast and dinner scoops of layer feed! wish i could leave them all out overnight without predators killing them!

 

[Revarded1]

Be aware that those protein levels are dry weight. As fed, the levels are much lower. So don't put too much feed value on having that suppliment available to them. OTOH, the bulk of those feedstuffs, not being dried and concentrated, means your birds will be lass able to gorge and imbalance their diet.

Think of those things primarily as "enrichment" (not dietary, but rather primarily entertainment), and you've the right mindset.

Otherwise, I'm in broad agreement that a selection of forage of numerous types - grasses, grains, legumes, herbs, cruciferous - available seasonally is far superior to any monoculture you might offer.

Oh, and J Rhodes homebrew feed is, nutritionally, pretty damned good (though variable based on the actual analysis of your ingredients). Its a damned sight better than anything "Garden Betty" has to offer. J Rhodes formula, btw, has more than passing resemblance to the feed formulas of mid last century, updated with some modern ingredients.

I looked at JR's recipe and I don't have enough birds to justify buying a $200 bag Poultry Nutrient ... I believe the manufacturer ratio was 1 bag per 1000 lbs.

I have had to tweak my feeding program here and there, but the goal is always to give them a solid base food with a lot of healthy forage options. Half of my birds are a breed that lays 290 extra large eggs per year, and they're a challenge. For me, they're pumping out 5-6 JUMBO eggs a week all year long no matter what, and they started laying at 13-14 weeks old. The eggs weigh anywhere from 70-110 grams, and they're normal size chickens not a giant breed. It's hard to keep up with their nutritional needs without overdoing it for the rest of the girls.

The bountiful, gigantic eggs are nice, but I never would have gotten them if I had known before hand how hard it is on them. The other chickens consistently lay 60+ gram, sturdy-shelled eggs.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I looked at JR's recipe and I don't have enough birds to justify buying a $200 bag Poultry Nutrient ... I believe the manufacturer ratio was 1 bag per 1000 lbs.

I keep saying how its not cost effective. Even with savings from my pasture, I feed 3 tons+/- (more plus than minus) a year, and still can't make it cost effective.

But if you look on many feed bags from mills, you will likely find that, like JRhodes, they are grinding some mix of grains, legumes, and seeds together, then adding {animal/fish} meal and a vitamin suppliment at the end to make it work. So I borrow their economies of scale when I buy from them. Also, they rebalance their formulas for as the nutritional values of the ingredients change - I don't have the time, materials, expertise, or equipment to do nutritional assyas on each new batch of corn, oats, wheat, soy meal, etc as I purchase them. So again, I benefit from buying, rather than making.

/edit Not to namedrop, but I think @cmom feeds as much per week as I do in a month, and you don't see that poster talking about the benefits of producing your own feed, either. For good reason. Even at the scale of that operation, we just don't have the size to make it worthwhile, even if we had the time to devote to sourcing, storing, testing, mixing, and grinding.

 

[WhiteTreeOfGondor]

I feed my chickens shredded collard greens. Lots of good nutrients for the birds and they love the stuff. Also feed them watermelon in the summer, strawberry tops and cut up grapes. My hens get really excited when they see me coming with a food container. Also they get seed mix, laying scratch and meal worms.

Do you give them those things without a layer feed?

 

[WhiteTreeOfGondor]

How big is your chicken run and do they have access to fresh grass? I would look more into incorporating more forage opportunity into your run before I changed their diet that drastically. I plant comfrey (about 19% protein) around my bird pens. Yesterday, I sowed peas (20% protein), broccoli, and buckwheat heavily around the chicken run to give them a winter buffet. If you Google it or even poke around BYC, there is a lot of info on how to plant inside the chicken run too.

I have 9 chickens in a 16x30 planted run. They get about 2.5 cups of soaked/fermented whole grain feed in the morning. This is about one cup worth of dry feed. I get a 40 lb bag for $39. At a cup a day, it lasts for quite some time.

There is a 5-gallon (25 lb capacity) feeder of non-gmo layer pellets in the coop that they have 24/7 access to. It only goes down about an inch or less per day, so I only put maybe 6 lbs of food in it for the week.

I also have a high protein, omega-3 green fodder system going. The mix is mainly buckwheat, millet, flax, clover, but I bulk it up in winter with peas, broccoli, alfalfa and whatever I can grow quickly/cheaply in cooler weather as my main mix doesn't grow as well below 65 degrees. They get a shoebox sized tray every day. It helps save the grass when they have some other green stuff to peck at. I'm about to change my fodder process to double the amount they get.

They're constantly scratching for bugs and nibbling the plants. I throw them my vegetable scraps and they get a dried mealworms snack in the afternoon. Sometimes I add fresh chopped produce to their morning wet food. Last night I made zucchini and acorn squash so the squash seeds and some chopped zucchini made it to their bowl. Some people make a hardware cloth composter next to or in the chicken run that allows the chickens to get extra bugs that fall out.

In short, fermenting the food stretches it out and makes the nutrients more digestible. Kitchen scraps add some fresh food and diversity to the diet. Enough green space will encourage the chickens to forage for their own food. Packing it with nutritious vegetation will ensure a healthy selection.

Also, I get the best deal on non-GMO pellets at chewy.com. They have some options for whole grain fermenting, but I like Scratch and Peck for that. My egg quality is the highest on S&P ferment, and I get the best deal on it from Azure Standard.

Justin Rhodes on Abundant Permaculture has a lot of info on his website for how to stretch feed and make chickens eat "naturally". The maggot bucket was a bit much lol but I've used a lot of his other recommendations. He says if the chickens eat more than 1/4 lb per bird of commercial feed each week, then it's time to cut back.

Their area is a little under 1/2 an acre, with about 20% of that as grass and weeds, and the rest woods. I'd love to figure out how to plant more forage in there; I put down some oats once but they ate it before it sprouted, no surprise there

 

[WhiteTreeOfGondor]

I should start by saying I did not read to the end of this thread before posting this here. So apologies if people here already mentioned permaculture solutions for you.

One thing I found very useful in supplementing (if not nearly replacing) bagged feed is to have my chickens do all my composting work. They eat the worms, beetles, mycelium, stray weed seeds that sprout from the heat… plus they get to do what they do best which is scratch and peck. Last year I planted some of their bagged food and tossed them whole stocks of grain that I grew myself! Definitely did not require any additional labor on my part- and then I rotated them into that part of the garden. Not much space is needed for growing grain and you interplant it with some radish or turnips or beets that can be used for food stock for them in the winter as well. Though depending on your reasons for having 38 chickens you may need more space than you currently have for them to free range. You are totally correct though- chickens did just fine before we started helping them- giving them a natural environment with plentiful (intentionally planted) forage is an excellent way to have GMO free organic happy delicious eggs. After all we are what our food eats!
Permaculture has helped me a lot with finding planting combinations and some perennials for them to forage on. They also do very well in orchards assuming the trees are mature enough to tolerate their behavior

I also ferment grains for them. Helps gut bacteria as well as stretching the grains a bit further. They get more nutrition from the soaked seed and end up eating less bulk than dry. That was a huge $ saver before I got the other systems up and running!
I’m excited for you on your journey. I hope some of this info was helpful

It is, thank you! We have our compost area inside the chicken run, athough currently it's fenced only for a broody hen who hatched a chick. They definitely spend a lot of time there when they have access.

 

[3KillerBs]

Their area is a little under 1/2 an acre, with about 20% of that as grass and weeds, and the rest woods. I'd love to figure out how to plant more forage in there; I put down some oats once but they ate it before it sprouted, no surprise there

You'd need to set up a rotational grazing system.