FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[ChickenCanoe]

Has any research been done to see if the fermented food and increased prebiotics and probiotics change the chemistry of the eggs?

I doubt they would change the chemistry. The basic feed ingredients are the same. The probiotics will just help digestion and make more of the nutrients available which could increase vitamin content of the eggs.

Thanks Bee I still have all the info you gave me months ago on FF in my inbox to refer to as well.

I need to figure out what feed to buy. I've discovered some feeds have DE in them..... I want non-gmo stuff. I don't want to eat gmo stuff so I don't want to feed it to my chickens.

The DE is put into poultry feeds as an anti caking agent.

...
I think crumbles looks more natural to eat. I've never liked the look of pellet food. lol! It's a me thing.

When fed dry, there's less waste with pellets.

There aren't that many GMO crops at all ... not in the modern usage. Corn, soy, canola & alfalfa are the big ones for animal feeds ... sugar beets ... I guess some people feed animals beet pulp.

There are great websites that explain what things are GMO.

I've been researching non-GMO and Certified Organic feeds lately, and I've been seeing DE on the ingredients lists.

Over 90% of the soy and 80% of the corn in the US is GMO and 60% in the whole world. 95% the sugar beets are GMO now. If a package of sugar doesn't say pure cane, it's made from GMO beets. I only use cane sugar for making bee syrup.
Over 90% of the cotton grown in the US and India is GMO. Cotton seed meal is frequently a feed ingredient.
Almost all of Hawaiian papayas are GMO, to avoid them, buy your papayas from Mexico and Central America.
Some zucchini is now GMO.
Soon there will be GMO rice and potatoes.

http://www.economist.com/node/18231380
I understand that there's a need to produce more food for a growing global population and while I'm wary of health detriments consuming GMOs, that isn't my biggest beef with them. It's the fact that they are supplanting traditional sustainable farming practices. No more seed saving. All future seed will eventually need to be purchased from Monsanto and a few other international mega firms.

... I am allergic to dairy so sometimes I don't have a choice.

I'd like to feed Scratch and Peck feeds, but they are too expensive, especially when you factor in shipping. Maybe I should start a blog and get them to sponsor me so they will ship me discounted product.

I do have have another question. My chicks are more than likely (not by choice) coming in at staggered times. I may be starting out with just one or two chicks for about a week or two. How much feed would I need to ferment for them? And how long does a batch last? I plan on having several (2-3) jars going so one is always ready to use.

I will eventually have 9 chicks, 3 of which will be silkies. How much food is a good starting point (cup wise) to start fermenting for that many? I am totally clueless as to how much a chick can eat. If they are like my cats they will eat 24/7, or at least that is what it seems like.

Have you tried almond milk?
There are several chicken meetup groups in Texas. Maybe you could join one and get an organic feed co-op going.
Try not to get a single chick to start. They'll be very lonely and the constant chirping may drive you nuts.
I started 12 newly hatched chicks on FF. I started with a 1/2 gallon container the first few days and after a week I got a 2 gallon stainless pot with a glass lid. That was sufficient for the first 2 months. I'll have to check my records but I believe to fill the 2 gallon pot with FF took about 3 pounds of dry feed. I'll repost if I'm wrong.
For your first couple chicks, you can probably start with 2 cups.
If you have a light on them 24/7 which I only recommend for the first few days, they will eat 24/7. Chickens (and all earthlings) really need a dark period though so by the 4th or 5th day I like them to have 8 hours of darkness.

The bags are usually sold by weight, not volume ... crumbles used to be pellets, before they were crumbled.

Pellets used to be mash, before they were compressed.

Pellets/crumbles are more processed ... I've read some old stuff that says there are fewer nutrients in pelleted foods because of the extra heat treatments. But I'm not sure if modern processing now eliminates that nutrient shift

The reason we pellet food is so all the ingriedients are mixed well in every bite of food ... mash can settle, or have some parts ignored ... and the powdery supplements get lost. And there is generally less waste with pellets. And very dry powdery foods are not always good for the bird's mouths and noses.

But if you're fermenting food ... serving moistened mash ... then the ingriedients stay more evenly distributed.

Most national commercial feeds don't come in mash ... not in smaller quantities. But some local mills offer it.

IME in mills, all the feed ingredients are heated the same and then binders are used to form pellets.
As you noted, mash is mostly for caged layers. I love the FF because it binds up the fines that would normally be shunned and go to waste. My assumption is that the fines are where a lot of the added vitamins, minerals and supplemented amino acids end up. That may be one of the reasons the birds do so well on FF. The good stuff doesn't go to waste.
The organic feed I use has more or less whole or cracked grains and a lot of fines. I probably wouldn't us it if it weren't for FF.

Quote: That's the same one. Lots of places carry them. I think I got mine at Tractor Supply. After the first week or two, I like to go to the larger chick feeders. It's a hassle filling feeders twice a day. Having feeders go empty encourages picking in the bedding and can contribute to coccidiosis.

...
That said, we have been using Scratch n Peck feeds almost since we started chickens not quite a year ago. Yes, it's expensive, but we have a modest flock of 12 birds. The eggs are wonderful and the feed looks more like real food. The fermenting makes a huge difference. I'm playing with some ideas to basically dilute/supplement the expensive feed with less expensive but still quality ingredients to basically make my own recipe. I will probably hold off during the heat of the summer when ingredients could go rancid more quickly and they are free-ranging so much. Perhaps next winter I'll start the supplementation. I need to do more research on chicken nutrition and amino acids.

Corn, milo and millet are about the only things I can find that are cheaper than chicken feed and there's already plenty of that in there.
Chickens have more of the amino acids that are essential to them than humans as they can't make their own. So feeds are usually a grain like corn or wheat and a legume like soy or peas since grains and beans have complementary amino acids. Animal protein like fish or pork meal is a better alternative.

Here's a good book for you.
http://www.contextbookshop.com/books/book_detail.php?bookcat=3&bookid=70\

Here's a couple helpful links.
http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/avian/feedingchickens.pdf
http://www.asi.k-state.edu/species/...ion/frequently-asked-questions/nutrition.html
http://www.mofga.org/Publications/M...r/Summer2003/Chickens/tabid/1481/Default.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812824/
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/pou..._poultry/vitamin_deficiencies_in_poultry.html

 

[Beekissed]

Try googling it. That's how I found the info myself. That way you google your own specific questions ...

When I was researching I found some interesting taste tests that indicate people can detect the off flavor when Camelina Meal is included in smaller doses, but the flavor gets unacceptable when the Camelina meal is included at higher levels. At least one state limits the amount of Camelina meal that can be used in poultry or pig feeds to 10%. I didn't research much beyond that. I just wanted to know what Camelina Meal was while I was considering different feed options.

It is used as a soy alternative ... something that can be concentrated. So other ingriedients can be added for a complete balanced ration.

It does increase Omega 3s, and is more stable than flax. But like flax, it is said to make eggs and meat taste bad.

Alfalfa also increases Omega 3s. As does green fresh pasture. I don't think either of those make eggs taste bad.

People are very keen to get away from soy. It is one of the most GMO crops. Me, too. But I don't want to jump the shark ...

Interesting expression!

We say "Don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water." around here.

Good information there....I've never heard of this Camelina meal either.

 

[Ms Jellybean]

You can get Scratch and peck feeds for free shipping though www.azurestandard.com. They are like a co-op and you place your order once a month. 40# bag is $27! No shipping or tax.

I have signed up with them. I need to call them to find out what drop ship I can get on. I did not know you could get free shipping.

Quote: I am using reamers for my chick waterers/feeders until they get too big for them. They won't be able to walk through their food or drown in their water. I also got a nipple waterer from Premier.

Quote: I read that you can have a charge for delivery depending on how far off the route you are. Good idea to cut S and P with something else. I am going to look into this.

I would love to know more about this. Can you please explain further? Is there somewhere people are talking about it making eggs taste off? I found this:

"Camelina, a relative to canola, is a drought resistance seed that is adapted to cooler northern climates. The seeds are a pale yellowish brown color and are quite small. It is a fall or spring planted annual oil crop species. Camelina germinates and emerges well before most cereal grains.

Camelina meal, the extruded product remaining after cold extraction of the oil, generally contains 10% – 15% oil (close to 30% of the oil consists of omega-3 fatty acids) and 36% protein."

Canola is from the rapeseed plant. I am going to do more reading on Camelina. Cold extraction is better than the super high heat they use to get canola oil from rapeseed. Canola oil goes bad quickly too.

I found this article very informative.

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperDownload.aspx?PaperID=24118

It talks about some good and bad of camelina. My feed has it in it but I have been very pleased with my eggs taste. It's very mild flavoring. It has to do with the percentage in the feed.

It also talks about there being a significant rise of omega 3 in the eggs. That great news.

Thanks for the link.

Google is my friend. Along with Amazon Prime. Best two things ever.

I agree!!

I doubt they would change the chemistry. The basic feed ingredients are the same. The probiotics will just help digestion and make more of the nutrients available which could increase vitamin content of the eggs.

The DE is put into poultry feeds as an anti caking agent.

When fed dry, there's less waste with pellets.

Over 90% of the soy and 80% of the corn in the US is GMO and 60% in the whole world. 95% the sugar beets are GMO now. If a package of sugar doesn't say pure cane, it's made from GMO beets. I only use cane sugar for making bee syrup.
Over 90% of the cotton grown in the US and India is GMO. Cotton seed meal is frequently a feed ingredient.
Almost all of Hawaiian papayas are GMO, to avoid them, buy your papayas from Mexico and Central America.
Some zucchini is now GMO.
Soon there will be GMO rice and potatoes.

http://www.economist.com/node/18231380
I understand that there's a need to produce more food for a growing global population and while I'm wary of health detriments consuming GMOs, that isn't my biggest beef with them. It's the fact that they are supplanting traditional sustainable farming practices. No more seed saving. All future seed will eventually need to be purchased from Monsanto and a few other international mega firms.

Have you tried almond milk?
There are several chicken meetup groups in Texas. Maybe you could join one and get an organic feed co-op going.
Try not to get a single chick to start. They'll be very lonely and the constant chirping may drive you nuts.
I started 12 newly hatched chicks on FF. I started with a 1/2 gallon container the first few days and after a week I got a 2 gallon stainless pot with a glass lid. That was sufficient for the first 2 months. I'll have to check my records but I believe to fill the 2 gallon pot with FF took about 3 pounds of dry feed. I'll repost if I'm wrong.
For your first couple chicks, you can probably start with 2 cups.
If you have a light on them 24/7 which I only recommend for the first few days, they will eat 24/7. Chickens (and all earthlings) really need a dark period though so by the 4th or 5th day I like them to have 8 hours of darkness.

IME in mills, all the feed ingredients are heated the same and then binders are used to form pellets.
As you noted, mash is mostly for caged layers. I love the FF because it binds up the fines that would normally be shunned and go to waste. My assumption is that the fines are where a lot of the added vitamins, minerals and supplemented amino acids end up. That may be one of the reasons the birds do so well on FF. The good stuff doesn't go to waste.
The organic feed I use has more or less whole or cracked grains and a lot of fines. I probably wouldn't us it if it weren't for FF.

That's the same one. Lots of places carry them. I think I got mine at Tractor Supply. After the first week or two, I like to go to the larger chick feeders. It's a hassle filling feeders twice a day. Having feeders go empty encourages picking in the bedding and can contribute to coccidiosis.

Corn, milo and millet are about the only things I can find that are cheaper than chicken feed and there's already plenty of that in there.
Chickens have more of the amino acids that are essential to them than humans as they can't make their own. So feeds are usually a grain like corn or wheat and a legume like soy or peas since grains and beans have complementary amino acids. Animal protein like fish or pork meal is a better alternative.

Here's a good book for you.
http://www.contextbookshop.com/books/book_detail.php?bookcat=3&bookid=70\

Here's a couple helpful links.
http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/avian/feedingchickens.pdf
http://www.asi.k-state.edu/species/...ion/frequently-asked-questions/nutrition.html
http://www.mofga.org/Publications/M...r/Summer2003/Chickens/tabid/1481/Default.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812824/
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/pou..._poultry/vitamin_deficiencies_in_poultry.html

If you use FF you don't need to add probiotics then? I've been reading Fresh Eggs Daily and she recommends feeding probiotics to chicks.

I do use Almond Milk. I love it. Much better than soy. The only soy I intentionally ingest is soy protein powder. I can't use any of the milk based ones and I need something when I come back from my cycling rides. I make protein smoothies with it. I think the stuff I use is organic though.

I will only use pure can sugar. There are a lot of sugars made from beet sugar. Beets are a huge crop in Texas.

Thanks for the info on the amounts. It gives me a jumping off point.

I am also using a heat plate for my chicks. Everything I've read on them is great. Less fire hazard, the chicks wean themselves off the need for heat faster and they are a lot more quiet.
I am really hoping the chick comes in two weeks and not next week. If she comes in two weeks my BCM's will be also be coming to join her. Timing out the arrival of chicks is difficult when you get them from different sources. Most of birds are coming from breeders so I'm kind of at their mercy on the timing. I can get 2 Ameracaunas from the person, but then I will need to rehome the one later, after the BCM's come. I have to rehome 2 BCM's too. I have chicken math going on big time right now!

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
Every bite of FF is filled with large quantities of active, live and growing prebiotics and probiotics, so no need to add the dried probiotics to the feed. These have the added benefit of being FREE.

 

[Ms Jellybean]

Every bite of FF is filled with large quantities of active, live and growing prebiotics and probiotics, so no need to add the dried probiotics to the feed. These have the added benefit of being FREE.

 

[chickengirl1193]

A few months ago I was going crazy trying to find a good organic non gmo feed that wasnt going to cost me an arm and a leg to get shipped here. Then I decided to try the organic feed at my feed store and it was $38 for 50 lbs. And I was unimpressed with the quality of the feed and the eggs. And I came to the conclusion that people have been feeding non organic for years and years with no ill effects and I'm not going to drive myself crazy and spend tons of money for mediocre feed. Plus I would rather feed my chickens naturally with free ranging.Now I feed southern states all grain for $15/50 lbs and I ferment it and they love it and are doing great! And now that the snow is melting they will get most of their food from free ranging. And also from what I will be growing in my garden.
Thats just my opinion and I respect anybody that can afford a good organic feed, but for me the only feed available was way over priced and not any better than the conventional feeds

 

[Beekissed]

A few months ago I was going crazy trying to find a good organic non gmo feed that wasnt going to cost me an arm and a leg to get shipped here. Then I decided to try the organic feed at my feed store and it was $38 for 50 lbs. And I was unimpressed with the quality of the feed and the eggs. And I came to the conclusion that people have been feeding non organic for years and years with no ill effects and I'm not going to drive myself crazy and spend tons of money for mediocre feed. Plus I would rather feed my chickens naturally with free ranging.Now I feed southern states all grain for $15/50 lbs and I ferment it and they love it and are doing great! And now that the snow is melting they will get most of their food from free ranging. And also from what I will be growing in my garden.
Thats just my opinion and I respect anybody that can afford a good organic feed, but for me the only feed available was way over priced and not any better than the conventional feeds

Exactly. Doing the best one can without complicating one's life and spending more on an egg than need be. That's how I do it too. Fresh milled feeds, free range for most of the nutrition and fermenting it so that I get more for my buck and the chickens get better health from it.

 

[Ms Jellybean]

A few months ago I was going crazy trying to find a good organic non gmo feed that wasnt going to cost me an arm and a leg to get shipped here. Then I decided to try the organic feed at my feed store and it was $38 for 50 lbs. And I was unimpressed with the quality of the feed and the eggs. And I came to the conclusion that people have been feeding non organic for years and years with no ill effects and I'm not going to drive myself crazy and spend tons of money for mediocre feed. Plus I would rather feed my chickens naturally with free ranging.Now I feed southern states all grain for $15/50 lbs and I ferment it and they love it and are doing great! And now that the snow is melting they will get most of their food from free ranging. And also from what I will be growing in my garden.
Thats just my opinion and I respect anybody that can afford a good organic feed, but for me the only feed available was way over priced and not any better than the conventional feeds

Thank you for posting this. I'll go back to my original plan of Texas Naturals. I am concerned with gmo's and T N is a nongmo feed, so it's good for me. I'll be adding herbs and greens to their diet and they will get to have supervised free range time.

Exactly. Doing the best one can without complicating one's life and spending more on an egg than need be. That's how I do it too. Fresh milled feeds, free range for most of the nutrition and fermenting it so that I get more for my buck and the chickens get better health from it.

How long does a batch of FF feed keep if you don't feed it out all in one day? I need to start some fermenting today and I may not need it for a couple of weeks depending on when the chicks start arriving. I really don't want to waste feed.

 

[Beekissed]

Thank you for posting this. I'll go back to my original plan of Texas Naturals. I am concerned with gmo's and T N is a nongmo feed, so it's good for me. I'll be adding herbs and greens to their diet and they will get to have supervised free range time.

How long does a batch of FF feed keep if you don't feed it out all in one day? I need to start some fermenting today and I may not need it for a couple of weeks depending on when the chicks start arriving. I really don't want to waste feed.

Indefinitely....I have the same batch going perpetually since about 2 years ago. It's like sourdough bread starter...except you don't add each time you take some out. You feed out of the bucket until it gets low and you can even see the bottom of the bucket in places, then you add fresh feed and water, stir well and the strong LABs in your last batch inoculates the new feed for a faster ferment. You can start feeding that out the very next day.

I refresh feed about every 2 wks and in the summer I make smaller batches because I don't feed as much, and it gets refreshed quicker than 2 wks. Kassaundra has had the same batch going for a couple of years now in a huge barrel so she probably has feed in there that is still 2 yrs old, no doubt.

 

[Ms Jellybean]

Indefinitely....I have the same batch going perpetually since about 2 years ago. It's like sourdough bread starter...except you don't add each time you take some out. You feed out of the bucket until it gets low and you can even see the bottom of the bucket in places, then you add fresh feed and water, stir well and the strong LABs in your last batch inoculates the new feed for a faster ferment. You can start feeding that out the very next day.

I refresh feed about every 2 wks and in the summer I make smaller batches because I don't feed as much, and it gets refreshed quicker than 2 wks. Kassaundra has had the same batch going for a couple of years now in a huge barrel so she probably has feed in there that is still 2 yrs old, no doubt.

Do you worry about plastic leaching stuff into the food? I would use glass but with my luck I would break it somehow. That is just how life is at my house. Stainless would get heavy. Maybe not in the size I need though. I think I have a large pot in storage I could use when I need larger quantities.

How much water do you drain off when you feed? Does it matter if you feed the water too?

Is there a chart somewhere that says how much to feed per chicken? I am clueless as to how much is enough for chickens. I free feed my cats and have a dog that I feed twice a day. I know what dogs need, but chickens are a lot smaller than a GSD. I don't want to underfeed. I know I can't over feed, they will self-regulate.