FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[LeslieDJoyce]

I would imagine it's because they really hate all of us fermenting our feeds and making them stretch further, thus reducing our need to buy so much feed....that hits their pocketbook.

If I'm reading it right, he didn't say not to ferment the feed, he said to add it after the fermentation.

So far I'm not getting the big predatory money-grubbing feeling off of the Fertrell company.

Am I getting that feeling off of some of the feed companies which have jumped onto the coat-tails of Joel Salatin recommending this product by adding brand name NutriBalancer to their feed mixes? YOUBETCHA!

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I would imagine it's because they really hate all of us fermenting our feeds and making them stretch further, thus reducing our need to buy so much feed....that hits their pocketbook.

I'll buy that one.

I have written to them, too! They haven't answered me yet, but I am expecting very much this answer.

(For me, this is another reason, along with what I consider to be a questionable protein source & some overly "precious" customer service attitudes, for not buying certain brands of feed that already have NutriBalancer mixed in. What I do is stir NutriBalancer into my daily serving of Fermented Feed just before the feed bucket heads out to the coop. I'm using a bit less than the full 3%, and I offer calcium on the side. I started doing this at the same time I started fermenting some of their feed because my already-rough-looking flock went into a simultaneous and hideous molt ... and boy is my flock looking and ACTING so much better now! SO much better!)

As I stated before, I believe this is due to the way water soluble vitamins lose potency when exposed to moisture. For example, if you grind up a niacin pill to add to drinking water for ducks, then the water will have to be changed at least every 24 hours, and new niacin ground up & dissolved into it, to keep the potency of the niacin close to adequate. You even have to ingest water soluble vitamins "every day" to keep enough of them in your system because your body flushes them out ...

This is why it is so much harder to overdose on water soluble vitamins.

BK has made a very good point, several times, about the increased nutrition of properly fermented feeds ... about how much the niacin (specifically) is increased in properly fermented corn ... so presuming we are fermenting our feeds properly, then there is less need for (at least some) supplements. If I hadn't been in such a panic about the state of the flock, I would have started with Fermented Feed first, and then added supplements if I didn't feel the birds responded well enough with "just" that.

I think this is a very interesting facet of the discussion of fermented feeds ... how to best use our ingredients to get the most nutritious results for the birds.

While I like FF and the benefits, as with fodder, there are limits to what nutrients are improved, notably vitamins, amino acids, carbs but Minerals won't be affected.

If I'm reading it right, he didn't say not to ferment the feed, he said to add it after the fermentation.

So far I'm not getting the big predatory money-grubbing feeling off of the Fertrell company.

Am I getting that feeling off of some of the feed companies which have jumped onto the coat-tails of Joel Salatin recommending this product by adding brand name NutriBalancer to their feed mixes? YOUBETCHA!

I think they're not overly concerned since a small percentage of poultry feed purchasers are willing to go to the trouble - at least not yet.

 

[pdirt]

So far, I'm not getting the feeling Fertrell is recommending based upon money. I suspect Leslie is correct in the main reason would be loss of vitamins due to the Nutribalancer (or other supplement) being wet for days, but I'm wanting to hear this direct from the company's mouth, if they care to do so. My feed already has Nutribalancer mixed in. If I can find an organic or at least soy-free and pesticide-free feed WITHOUT any vitamin/mineral supplementation, I might go that route and perhaps mix in 1-2% of a supplement at feed time.

 

[Beekissed]

Are you all having trouble maintaining good health and conditioning with just plain FF? I feel out of the loop because my cheap layer mash seems to be maintaining optimal health, feathering and laying without supplementation and was wondering why everyone is wanting to supplement if they aren't having any difficulties...unless you are having difficulties? If so, could you describe them?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Are you all having trouble maintaining good health and conditioning with just plain FF? I feel out of the loop because my cheap layer mash seems to be maintaining optimal health, feathering and laying without supplementation and was wondering why everyone is wanting to supplement if they aren't having any difficulties...unless you are having difficulties? If so, could you describe them?

I had trouble on unfermented layer pellets from a national brand.

I changed a lot of things all at once. One thing was to start feeding a small portion of FF daily. I also switched brands and formulas of feed.

To my eyes and observation, the flock improved drastically. But due to the unscientific nature of the switch, I cannot attribute all that to the fermentation. I also added supplements when I started fermenting the feed. The moist FF makes for a great way to include powdered/granulated supplements without "losing" them in the bottom of the feeder.

I'm going to continue to both ferment and supplement at least until I have the chickens' environment improved. I'm planning on making lots of changes ... After that, I'll continue to ferment, but may drop the supplements. If I drop the supplements depends on how I tweak the feed.

 

[Beekissed]

Gotcha.

 

[Ms Jellybean]

Isn't the whole point of FF to not have to add stuff to it? The fermenting process gives it a nutritional boost so you don't need to add anything. Why bother then? It seems like overkill to me. I'd just need a good, non-gmo food and leave it at that. That is my $0.02 worth.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Isn't the whole point of FF to not have to add stuff to it? The fermenting process gives it a nutritional boost so you don't need to add anything. Why bother then? It seems like overkill to me. I'd just need a good, non-gmo food and leave it at that. That is my $0.02 worth.

Hmmmmm.

Interesting question. And I bet answers will depend on different perspectives.

For me the point of fermenting the feed is to make the food more nutritious for the bird so the bird is healthier. It isn't exclusively about saving time or saving money or saving effort.

Yes, it's important for me to find efficient ways to do things ... otherwise they don't get done. But my motivation is to provide the best for the birds as well as my capabilities, and my common sense

, allows.

I believe all commercially prepared poultry feeds already have supplements mixed into them ... look at the long list of ingredients. Some people choose to mix their own rations, or add extra vitamin supplements to the feed. If they do that, and also ferment the feeds, then it seems to make some scientific sense to add the vitamin supplements AFTER fermenting. Mineral supplements could probably be added at any time. And if the supplements are proteins, then my personal opinion is to add vegetable proteins prior to fermenting, but add animal-based proteins AFTER fermenting.

SO ... if the supplement combines both vitamins and minerals and also probiotics and stuff, I'd add that after fermenting, like the Fertrell company has advised the poster above ...

Just my two-cents based on my current understanding of the situation ... I'm still digging.

 

[Beekissed]

Isn't the whole point of FF to not have to add stuff to it? The fermenting process gives it a nutritional boost so you don't need to add anything. Why bother then? It seems like overkill to me. I'd just need a good, non-gmo food and leave it at that. That is my $0.02 worth.

Yep...that's the whole point. But I'm finding that there are folks who like to explore the outer limits by adding this or that, special feed mixes, different probios or starters....just for the fun of it.

For folks like me, I am pretty satisfied with the results of simple fermentation and can't really see much room for improvement in my flock...they just can't get any healthier, better feathered, better at laying or more thrifty on feed than they are right now, so I just stopped with simple fermentation. My theory is that they can only utilize so many minerals and vitamins and the rest get excreted onto the coop floor and additional protein gets turned into fat that stresses their cardio, hepatic and renal systems and can inhibit the reproductive system~so that's just throwing money, time and effort into the deep litter and my deep litter is already doing fine without it.

So, I just ferment plain ol' feed and am satisfied with the results. Some may not be satisfied and are looking for more and that's their prerogative.

I grow weary of trying to encourage simple things and have found that folks are going to complicate their lives because they LIKE it and if they like it, let 'em be happy! No skin off my nose.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Yep...that's the whole point. But I'm finding that there are folks who like to explore the outer limits by adding this or that, special feed mixes, different probios or starters....just for the fun of it.

For folks like me, I am pretty satisfied with the results of simple fermentation and can't really see much room for improvement in my flock...they just can't get any healthier, better feathered, better at laying or more thrifty on feed than they are right now, so I just stopped with simple fermentation. My theory is that they can only utilize so many minerals and vitamins and the rest get excreted onto the coop floor and additional protein gets turned into fat that stresses their cardio, hepatic and renal systems and can inhibit the reproductive system~so that's just throwing money, time and effort into the deep litter and my deep litter is already doing fine without it.

So, I just ferment plain ol' feed and am satisfied with the results. Some may not be satisfied and are looking for more and that's their prerogative.

I grow weary of trying to encourage simple things and have found that folks are going to complicate their lives because they LIKE it and if they like it, let 'em be happy! No skin off my nose.

Post that photo of Momma on the nest ... it literally looks like she's been fattened up for foie gras. I'd swear you were tamping food down her throat with a funnel or fire hose. On 1/2 cup of budget-conscious FF per day. It would probably be pure cruelty to try to force more "nutrition" on your flock.