FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[pdirt]

This is so totally different from what I've been told.  Pdirt.  Lab's have to have oxygen.  That's why you put a towel or loose top on it.  Anyone else have this same idea?   I've never had it completely covered airtight.  It may work different for EM-1 additive.  I've been using ACV to activate mine. 

I know...there's a lot of misinformation out there. I'm certainly no expert on fermentation, but I have learned a few things over the years. You don't need it airtight for regular fermentation. If you're using EM-1, you want it as airtight as possible...I have a bucket of EM-fermented feed that I place a plastic bag on the feed and use a lid that doesn't snap down tight, but does have a rubber seal. This works just fine. A little air won't destroy the balance.

The towel is to keep flies out. The old school way of fermentation, such as sauerkraut, was a large crock of shredded cabbage submerged under it's own brine and sometimes covered with a cloth to keep flies out. It's the LABs that are most at work in kraut, though yeast does have a small role. Since LABs can thrive in both aerobic and anaerobic conditions and "bad bacteria" cannot thrive in anaerobic, the LABs win being submerged.

 

[Tumbleweed Farm]

I keep mine completely uncovered in a large wicker lidded storage bin in my run. No problems--have had it nearly 3 mos now.

 

[LindaB220]

This morning I found mine had a little bit stronger yeasty smell. What was in the bottom of the jar looked fine but there was some blue/green stuff growing on the bits that had stuck to the side of the jar. I decided that any bits down close to the main contents would be stirred in. Then waited a couple of hours and filled the chick's dish then emptied the contents into a clean jar avoiding as much of the mold as possible. I then added some new water and starter to the old and stirred. After what I just read I took the towel away and covered with a plastic bag. Does that sound okay?

I'm waiting for Bee to answer on this. She's the one that started the entire Fermented Feeds thread. On the internet there was only a few hits about it. Then she started talking and experimenting and people listened and now there's like 200,000 hits on it.

 

[Tumbleweed Farm]

Amazing, isn't it. She is truly a trailblazer!

 

[Beekissed]

This is so totally different from what I've been told. Pdirt. Lab's have to have oxygen. That's why you put a towel or loose top on it. Anyone else have this same idea? I've never had it completely covered airtight. It may work different for EM-1 additive. I've been using ACV to activate mine.

You are correct...LABs have to have a source of oxygen to survive. They derive it from the organic material they are feeding upon and no amount of putting plastic or tight lids over the buckets will keep this from happening...nor should anyone be trying to keep it from happening.

Here's a little blurb on it from Wiki....I'll highlight some important points in red....

and anaerobic systems the growing and reproducing microorganisms within them require a source of elemental oxygen to survive.[1]
In an anaerobic system there is an absence of gaseous oxygen. In an anaerobic digester, gaseous oxygen is prevented from entering the system through physical containment in sealed tanks. Anaerobes access oxygen from sources other than the surrounding air. The oxygen source for these microorganisms can be the organic material itself or alternatively may be supplied by inorganic oxides from within the input material. When the oxygen source in an anaerobic system is derived from the organic material itself, then the 'intermediate' end products are primarily alcohols, aldehydes, and organic acids plus carbon dioxide. In the presence of specialised methanogens, the intermediates are converted to the 'final' end products of methane, carbon dioxide with trace levels of hydrogen sulfide.[2] In an anaerobic system the majority of the chemical energy contained within the starting material is released by methanogenic bacteria as methane.[3]
In an aerobic system, such as composting, the microorganisms access free, gaseous oxygen directly from the surrounding atmosphere. The end products of an aerobic process are primarily carbon dioxide and water which are the stable, oxidised forms of carbon and hydrogen. If the biodegradable starting material contains nitrogen, phosphorus and sulfur, then the end products may also include their oxidised forms- nitrate, phosphate and sulfate.[1] In an aerobic system the majority of the energy in the starting material is released as heat by their oxidisation into carbon dioxide and water.[3]
Composting systems typically include organisms such as fungi that are able to break down lignin and celluloses to a greater extent than anaerobic bacteria.[4] Due to this fact it is possible, following anaerobic digestion, to compost the anaerobic digestate allowing further volume reduction and stabilisation.[5]

I doubt just putting plastic or plastic and then a lid will make an FF bucket an efficient anaerobic digester....if it were that easy the wine and liquor industry are spending WAY too much money on trying to keep out wild yeasts. We'll call them up and tell them to just use a plastic bag...

I suggest folks do some serious reading on the difference between these two, read more about wild yeasts, about the process of fermentation of feed grains and all the end products....without just reading someone's misinformation on a blog site. Dig deeper, read more reputable information so you won't have to get it second hand and wrongly so.

Yes, I know Wiki isn't always accurate about things either, so read further, dig a little....I just posted this so folks can get an idea of what is going on in their buckets....and it's not the aerobic kind of digestion going on, with or without your lids screwed down tight or plastic over the buckets.

I suggest, while you are digging and reading, to just leave the bucket lid cracked open on one side, stir your feed before feeding out and scrape down the bucket sides while doing so and just enjoy the simplicity of the system....it's healthy, it's working and will continue to work, just as it has for many people for the past few years using the same open air system to produce fermented feed for the chickens.

No starters needed, no lids or containment to limit oxygen to the feed is needed, no water over the level of the feed needs to be maintained, and no over thinking of a simple process is needed.....learn about it, own the information and don't repeat what is learned on blog sites as certain fact unless you've done the research to confirm it as fact. I used to have several links about such information and they are probably buried deep in these two threads but I'm too tired to go looking for them tonight.

 

[chickengirl1193]

hey guys! my RIR has poop caked around her vent. It started out just a bit and it kept building up. Shes the only one with this problem but she lays the biggest eggs. What could be the cause for this and how do i go about cleaning her up? Just letting her soak in some warm water?
Also i have noticed in the past few days my birds have been eating much more feed! I give 7 birds roughly 4 cups of feed and they usually still have some left in the trough the next day but lately they have been finishing it by noon, should i be feeding them more or should i keep them at the roughly 1/2 c per bird? (i have also recently made a higher percentage of their feed 18% grower)

 

[chickengirl1193]

Well I soaked her in some warm water and cleaned her up now shes drying. It was easier than I thought! I do notice that she has a large bulge below her vent, almost like an egg waiting to come out but she already laid her egg today. Is this just chicken anatomy that you wouldnt normally see when their feathers are fluffed?

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I try to give them what they can clean up before they go to roost. All chickens weren't created equal. The amount they consume (need) will vary with the breed, strain and management. A Serama in a cage will eat perhaps a quarter of what a LF Java, Langshan or Jersey Giant will free ranging in winter. Leghorns and Jaers in a pen may be fine with a 1/2 cup but most of my birds need more.

As for the poop caked butt, I would get a fecal sample read at a vet. I had 2 hens in one flock and 3 in another with the same issue a few months ago when I started the FF. I didn't think it was related but I didn't know. I increased the probiotics in the water and no change. I suspected round worms but didn't want to worm prophylactically. Finally I found a vet that would read the sample without seeing "the patient". Turns out it wasn't worms but the bacterium Clostridia. He has those 2 flocks on Tetracycline now. The good thing is their feces is firm again, the bummer is I have to discard about 250 eggs over the next couple weeks.

 

[chickengirl1193]

I try to give them what they can clean up before they go to roost. All chickens weren't created equal. The amount they consume (need) will vary with the breed, strain and management. A Serama in a cage will eat perhaps a quarter of what a LF Java or Jersey Giant will free ranging in winter.

As for the poop caked butt, I would get a fecal sample read at a vet. I had 2 hens in one flock and 3 in another with the same issue a few months ago when I started the FF. I didn't think it was related but I didn't know. I increased the probiotics in the water and no change. I suspected round worms but didn't want to worm prophylactically. Finally  I found a vet that would read the sample without seeing "the patient". Turns out it wasn't worms but the bacterium Clostridia. He has those 2 flocks on Tetracycline now. The good thing is their feces is firm again, the bummer is I have to discard about 250 eggs over the next couple weeks.

I had a fecal done in January and there was nothing that needed treatment. I will get another fecal done tho. She has normal poops just some gets stuck to her feathers. And her eggs come out beautiful and clean every morning. When I bring the fecal sample should I bring some from the hole flock or just the chicken with problems?

 

[niqueie]

It's called vent gleet. I had a bird die after she had it for 2 weeks. I think she actually died of of being egg bound and the vent gleet complicated it. I tried putting garlic in their feed and I cleaned her many times a week. I hope your bird does better soon.