FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[OHhappychicks]

So you are saying it takes 3-4 days to get a good fermentation? I'm using 1- 5 gallon bucket for 31 chickens. When it gets low, I add some water to it and let it sit for a few hours. It looks like it has scobey on top when I add the feed & more water. It then sets overnight to be fed the next day. So my feed might not be fermented enough? I used to keep 2-5gal buckets going, but had to use one to store sap in when we made maple syrup back in march, and I just didn't start it back up. Maybe I should. I assumed that if the feed left in the bucket was fermented and the little bit of water I used to cover it had a scobey on top, and it sit for 10-12 hrs or more, it would ferment. I will check mine as I have to mix more today. Just thinking.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Old beer to jump start fermentation? Brewer's yeast?

From what I've been reading, not really necessary (water + feed + 3 or 4 days). If I was going to jumpstart it with anything, I'd probably use ACV or maybe a wee bit of plain yogurt.

As far as I can tell, there are reasons to use a "starter," and here are some of them ...

If I was having a problem with my FF buckets getting a mildew/mold colony or odor instead of a tangy pickled odor and SCOBY. This would mean my local environment was so overrun with "bad" mold spores that they overwhelmed the "good stuff" normally available in the air, water and on the surface of the unfermented feed.

If I had a particular attachment to a particular type of starter-type product and it was really important to me to share that product with my flock. There are some brands of starters that some people "swear by," and I'm sure using them for fermenting chicken feeds can be very satisfying, and possibly even enhance the benefit of the FF a bit.

If I needed the fermentation process to be faster and couldn't "backslop" or "loop" my batches of FF.

If I was able to ferment in a laboratory-type environment and was conducting some sort of scientific study or test, which would probably only happen as part of some kind of marketing research for a commercial starter for which someone was paying me The Big Bucks and/or would eventually be awarding me some kind of academic degree.

Other reasons ... ?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

So you are saying it takes 3-4 days to get a good fermentation? I'm using 1- 5 gallon bucket for 31 chickens. When it gets low, I add some water to it and let it sit for a few hours. It looks like it has scobey on top when I add the feed & more water. It then sets overnight to be fed the next day. So my feed might not be fermented enough? I used to keep 2-5gal buckets going, but had to use one to store sap in when we made maple syrup back in march, and I just didn't start it back up. Maybe I should. I assumed that if the feed left in the bucket was fermented and the little bit of water I used to cover it had a scobey on top, and it sit for 10-12 hrs or more, it would ferment. I will check mine as I have to mix more today. Just thinking.

There has been some discussion here about "is your FF really fermented?" But in a negative tone, implying if your FF doesn't ferment for long enough, it isn't "properly" fermented and you are "just feeding wet feed" and wasting your energy and fooling yourself.

I've asked the people who claim "my" FF isn't really fermented "how long" my feed needs to ferment before it is "proper," and how I could tell if it was "properly" fermented. I got nothing for useful answers.

I have, however, found one research study, which I provided a link to a few pages back, that was measuring the nutritional enhancements of a fermented grain product ... measurements were taken after one day of ferment, again after two days of ferment, and again after three days of ferment. This study indicated that the nutritional enhancements were evident at the one-day mark, but increased on day two and increased again on day three. The biggest jump, to my eyes, appeared to happen between days one and two.

But I have not yet seen a study that indicates at what "day" continued fermentation produced reduced returns. Or, indeed, if things can be fermented "too long."

Based on what I know and how we like to serve the FF here, I have arranged my fermentation system in buckets ... 5 total buckets ... I always backslop from the "oldest" bucket to the one I'm starting. My system allows for a maximum of 5 days ferment time. My goal is "at least" 3 days.

To backslop, I take a couple small scoops out of the oldest bucket, and then stir in the full quantity of water I'll use for my quantity of feed. I get that really well stirred up before I put in my feed. Then I stir my feed into the liquid, I stir it well. I've noticed that it seems to "start" fermenting a LOT faster with doing it this way instead of doing it the old way, which was to put the feed in the bucket, then put the scoops of backslop on top of the feed, then pour the water over that, and then stir. But that's just a procedural detail that isn't "necessary." The feed + water will eventually ferment regardless of what order I add things to the bucket.

 

[OHhappychicks]

There has been some discussion here about "is your FF really fermented?" But in a negative tone, implying if your FF doesn't ferment for long enough, it isn't "properly" fermented and you are "just feeding wet feed" and wasting your energy and fooling yourself.

I've asked the people who claim "my" FF isn't really fermented "how long" my feed needs to ferment before it is "proper," and how I could tell if it was "properly" fermented. I got nothing for useful answers.

I have, however, found one research study, which I provided a link to a few pages back, that was measuring the nutritional enhancements of a fermented grain product ... measurements were taken after one day of ferment, again after two days of ferment, and again after three days of ferment. This study indicated that the nutritional enhancements were evident at the one-day mark, but increased on day two and increased again on day three. The biggest jump, to my eyes, appeared to happen between days one and two.

But I have not yet seen a study that indicates at what "day" continued fermentation produced reduced returns. Or, indeed, if things can be fermented "too long."

Based on what I know and how we like to serve the FF here, I have arranged my fermentation system in buckets ... 5 total buckets ... I always backslop from the "oldest" bucket to the one I'm starting. My system allows for a maximum of 5 days ferment time. My goal is "at least" 3 days.

To backslop, I take a couple small scoops out of the oldest bucket, and then stir in the full quantity of water I'll use for my quantity of feed. I get that really well stirred up before I put in my feed. Then I stir my feed into the liquid, I stir it well. I've noticed that it seems to "start" fermenting a LOT faster with doing it this way instead of doing it the old way, which was to put the feed in the bucket, then put the scoops of backslop on top of the feed, then pour the water over that, and then stir. But that's just a procedural detail that isn't "necessary." The feed + water will eventually ferment regardless of what order I add things to the bucket.

This is how I mix my ff also. Add water to the little bit in the bottom, stir well. I let mine sit for a little while first, then add the new feed and more water, stirring after each addition. I use half layer mash, and the other half is made of steamed rolled barley, boss, and scratch. I think I'm going to start my other bucket up today as well. I am having to mix it every 2-3 days. This way, if I don't get to the empty bucket right away, I have the 2nd one. But I need to go get mash at the feed store today!!

I really enjoy all the sharing of knowledge and experiences you can glean from everyone. Thanks for sharing!

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

This is how I mix my ff also. Add water to the little bit in the bottom, stir well. I let mine sit for a little while first, then add the new feed and more water, stirring after each addition. I use half layer mash, and the other half is made of steamed rolled barley, boss, and scratch. I think I'm going to start my other bucket up today as well. I am having to mix it every 2-3 days. This way, if I don't get to the empty bucket right away, I have the 2nd one. But I need to go get mash at the feed store today!!

I really enjoy all the sharing of knowledge and experiences you can glean from everyone. Thanks for sharing!

So ... do you feel that the protein content and minerals, etc., is too "rich" in the layer mash and therefore you need to cut that back by adding more grains?

 

[Beekissed]

So you are saying it takes 3-4 days to get a good fermentation? I'm using 1- 5 gallon bucket for 31 chickens. When it gets low, I add some water to it and let it sit for a few hours. It looks like it has scobey on top when I add the feed & more water. It then sets overnight to be fed the next day. So my feed might not be fermented enough? I used to keep 2-5gal buckets going, but had to use one to store sap in when we made maple syrup back in march, and I just didn't start it back up. Maybe I should. I assumed that if the feed left in the bucket was fermented and the little bit of water I used to cover it had a scobey on top, and it sit for 10-12 hrs or more, it would ferment. I will check mine as I have to mix more today. Just thinking.

That depends on what you are calling "good". Sufficiently fermented is what most folks are looking for and what the initial studies I found were measuring, but the later studies I found detailed what LJ is describing below....that further fermentation past the "sufficient" time of 15-24 hrs seems to also increase the benefits of the whole process. The study didn't take it much further than that so we have no way of knowing if those benefits increase even further the longer one ferments the grain but we will never know because we are always refreshing our feed quantities with fresh, unfermented feeds.

For me it's a matter of convenience and simplicity....I can mix larger batches than I need so that I'm sure it's truly fermented and I also don't have to rebatch as quickly. Refreshing once a week or so suits my routine better and it also allows a strong colony to grow in the feed, the harder grains to soften even more and the mix to absorb more fluid so it's not quite so soupy.

Some people don't feel comfortable letting their ferment deepen in that manner and like to do a more frequent refresh, so it's all a matter of preference really. My chickens seem to like the feed more the deeper the ferment and it saves me time and effort, so I stick with my routine. There is no hard and fast rules on this...we are all just feeling our own way here.

There has been some discussion here about "is your FF really fermented?" But in a negative tone, implying if your FF doesn't ferment for long enough, it isn't "properly" fermented and you are "just feeding wet feed" and wasting your energy and fooling yourself.

I've asked the people who claim "my" FF isn't really fermented "how long" my feed needs to ferment before it is "proper," and how I could tell if it was "properly" fermented. I got nothing for useful answers.

I have, however, found one research study, which I provided a link to a few pages back, that was measuring the nutritional enhancements of a fermented grain product ... measurements were taken after one day of ferment, again after two days of ferment, and again after three days of ferment. This study indicated that the nutritional enhancements were evident at the one-day mark, but increased on day two and increased again on day three. The biggest jump, to my eyes, appeared to happen between days one and two.

But I have not yet seen a study that indicates at what "day" continued fermentation produced reduced returns. Or, indeed, if things can be fermented "too long."

Based on what I know and how we like to serve the FF here, I have arranged my fermentation system in buckets ... 5 total buckets ... I always backslop from the "oldest" bucket to the one I'm starting. My system allows for a maximum of 5 days ferment time. My goal is "at least" 3 days.

To backslop, I take a couple small scoops out of the oldest bucket, and then stir in the full quantity of water I'll use for my quantity of feed. I get that really well stirred up before I put in my feed. Then I stir my feed into the liquid, I stir it well. I've noticed that it seems to "start" fermenting a LOT faster with doing it this way instead of doing it the old way, which was to put the feed in the bucket, then put the scoops of backslop on top of the feed, then pour the water over that, and then stir. But that's just a procedural detail that isn't "necessary." The feed + water will eventually ferment regardless of what order I add things to the bucket.

Good post!

Excellent feedback, LJ!

 

[Tikkijane]

So you are saying it takes 3-4 days to get a good fermentation?  I'm using 1- 5 gallon bucket for 31 chickens.  When it gets low, I add some water to it and let it sit for a few hours. It looks like it has scobey on top when I add the feed & more water.  It then sets overnight to be fed the next day.  So my feed might not be fermented enough? I used to keep 2-5gal buckets going, but had to use one to store sap in when we made maple syrup back in march, and I just didn't start it back up.  Maybe I should.  I assumed that if the feed left in the bucket was fermented and the little bit of water I used to cover it had a scobey on top, and it sit for 10-12 hrs or more, it would ferment.  I will check mine as I have to mix more today. Just thinking.:/

3 to 4 days initial fermentation; overnight + for subsequent batches when backslopping.

 

[OHhappychicks]

So ... do you feel that the protein content and minerals, etc., is too "rich" in the layer mash and therefore you need to cut that back by adding more grains?

I just add the other grains for variety. Probably not necessary. When I started ff last fall, I read this thread and noticed some put in the other grains. I mentioned to Bee of the portions I was going to use and she said that sounded about right. I know the boss adds a little fat, and the barley adds good protein, and the scratch, I know, is the "candy" in the mix. I don't really know exactly the protein level in the feed. Before I ff, we just fed them the mash, with treats of boss sometimes. I also like the consistancy of the mix. My mash that I use is very fine. I think it would be very soupy if I just used the mash. The flock seems to love it, and are very healthy. Since it has warmed up, I have cut back on the boss and scratch. My flock is out all day free ranging, so I know they don't need as much.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I just add the other grains for variety. Probably not necessary. When I started ff last fall, I read this thread and noticed some put in the other grains. I mentioned to Bee of the portions I was going to use and she said that sounded about right. I know the boss adds a little fat, and the barley adds good protein, and the scratch, I know, is the "candy" in the mix. I don't really know exactly the protein level in the feed. Before I ff, we just fed them the mash, with treats of boss sometimes. I also like the consistancy of the mix. My mash that I use is very fine. I think it would be very soupy if I just used the mash. The flock seems to love it, and are very healthy. Since it has warmed up, I have cut back on the boss and scratch. My flock is out all day free ranging, so I know they don't need as much.

The chickens do need a certain amount of nutrients in their feed to both survive and lay an egg, and layer feed is supposed to be balanced to provide those nutrients with the maximum efficiency (usually around 16% protein, but higher protein layer feeds do exist). There is usually room in a layer's diet for something like 10% treats if they are being served layer feed. It isn't just about proteins, though ... it is also about all the other nutrients added to the feed, and we don't want to dilute those too much.

Younger birds are a little different ...

But of course that presumes they are getting 100% of their diet from the feed the humans provide and aren't out foraging ... some forages offer lots of extra nutrients, some not so much.

 

[birdlady79]

Would free ranging cause chickens not to eat much of the ff? I was leaving dry food in too .. I took the dry food out thinking they were eating the dry bf I let them out in morning... It was pretty full too... So either they arnt eating or they are getting full on grass... Any ideas? FF smells sour.. Looks right..