FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[prettysilkies]

No one?  Okay...I'll start...

This will not be the first time I've fed fermented feeds to my chickens...just the first time I fermented their grain-based feeds.  In the past I've always kept unpasteurized ACV(with the mother intact) in their water and have also fed them fermented pumpkins in late winter/early spring.

This year, though, I happened to become curious about the health benefits of feeding them to the meaties in order to get more bang for my buck and also to keep them from having the smelly, diarrhea poops that are characteristic for these birds. 

Here are some of the articles I found that were helpful...it is a lot of information through which to sift, but there are gold nuggets in that thar stream... 

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/viewFile/60378/48610

http://www.pjbs.org/ijps/fin640.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19373724

Last but not least...ACV info~interesting stuff if you take it further and research the benefits of the bacteria therein:

http://silvalab.fsnhp.msstate.edu//vinegar_lactic.pdf

Of course, I knew little of fermenting grains, so I just had to start it somewhere....and it turned out much easier than I suspected.  I haven't been doing it long enough and on enough birds to give good, solid results and I'm hoping to hear from others who can but I can tell you what I have seen thus far.

Anyone doing it? [COLOR=006400]That would be me![/COLOR]
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How long have you been doing it?  [COLOR=006400]For some time but this is the first time doing it with the base feed ration of grains.[/COLOR]

Your methods?  [COLOR=006400]Right now I'm just using non-medicated chick starter for 54 meaties and one young WR roo.  My methods consist of two 5 gal. buckets sitting one within the other.  The top bucket has small holes drilled in the bottom and sides to form a sieve(this will come in handy later when I ferment whole grains and want to drain off the fermented water). [/COLOR]
[COLOR=006400] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=006400]Add chick starter, water, a glug or two of the UP/ACV for a starter culture and stir.  Wait until the next day and stir some more, try to keep the whole mix moist to promote the fermentation process.  You ought to smell a slight sour smell and see bubbles rising in the mash...when you smell and see this, you have active fermentation going on. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=006400]If you don't have anything to jump start this mix, as long as you keep it at room temp and let the air into it, it should form it's own cultures within 24 hours and they will grow stronger the longer they are allowed to "cook" or "work"...think sourdough bread starter when you picture what it looks and smells like.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=006400]I don't empty the water off this mix and the water lying in the bottom of the bucket sieve system is holding all the strong cultured growth of good bacteria, so when I add water it mixes with it and rises up past the grain in the top bucket to saturate the whole mix.  This reusing the cultures from the old water is called back-slopping and it will make your fermentation quicker and stronger and also give you a heavier growth of good bacteria. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=006400]I also give UP/ACV in all their water. [/COLOR]


Grains/feeds used in this manner?   [COLOR=006400]Right now, the chick starter, but when it is done(#50 bag), I'll switch to cracked corn, barley and wheat grains.  I'll venture to say they will probably have to ferment a little longer then the fine starter crumbles. [/COLOR]

Your overall review of this method of feeding?  [COLOR=006400]So far, I find it easy to do, a little messier than regular feeding when dealing with chicks and chick-height feeders but will soon be able to use it in feeders that can be elevated and not trampled in. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=006400]I also am very pleased to see that my CX chicks have perfect little formed poops instead of their usual yellow, frothy, stinky squirts so typical of the breed.  Their brooder has no bad smells, the chicks are eating the feed well and are growing quickly.  They don't seem to need to drink as often as when they first arrived and I attribute this to two reasons:  1.  They are being fed moist feed.  2.  They are not dehydrated by having liquid~ and frequent~ poops. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=006400]The WR roo was a gift and arrived a few days ago..he is probably 5 mo. old.  He seemed reluctant to eat the mix and acted like he was eating poop or something the first few times he ate it. [/COLOR]   [COLOR=006400]Now he seems to have developed quite a taste for it and is cleaning his plate well!  His feces have improved in color, texture and odor also since he first arrived.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=006400]Only time will tell how this feeding method pans out but I'm willing to try it and see.  I am doing this to improve bird health and performance and to gain more feed efficacy, thus spending less money on feed costs. [/COLOR]

I am just now starting to ferment my feed

 

[birdlady79]

I once added ACV to some alcoholy smelling FF, it made it smell MORE like straight up beer....The neighborhood guineas must have been drunk after I threw that stuff out!

sometimes I get a slight alcohol smell, I think some of us are just more sensitive to the smell of alcohol than others. If it's just food+water, I feed it.

Haha.... I usually don't add AVC but I have on occasion ... I think some feed is worse about it than others.. But it could be my nose lol.. I tried a new feed this round but hate how it ferments..... It really stinks ..

 

[momofthehouse]

I have all purpose flock feed is that ok? Or can I use chick crumble? My chicks range from a week old to 10 weeks old.

 

[subhanalah]

I have all purpose flock feed is that ok? Or can I use chick crumble? My chicks range from a week old to 10 weeks old.

I use the all flock for all of mine, chicks (ens), ducks (lings)

 

[momofthehouse]

I use the all flock for all of mine, chicks (ens), ducks (lings)

Ok thanks!

 

[niqueie]

W

No I do not feed fermented food.  When chicken food is fermented or sprouted most of the food energy, vitamins, and minerals are leached out and lost.  The idea that fermented food is higher in protein is only partially true.  Besides this you are taking great risks with fermented food of introducing Aspergillus into your flock.  Aspergillus is caused by ingesting molds or Penicillin that produces aflatoxin.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/x5036e/x5036e05.htm

like I mentioned earlier, in hot weather I do feed a mixture of pellets, scratch, Calf-Manna, non-fat dry milk, dog food, rabbet food, cod liver oil, vitamins, grains minerals, etc. that has been steeped or soaked in extreme boiling hot water (as much hot water as the feed will absorb) and then allowed to cool to no more than body temperature.  The boiling water kills any fungus or mold present and the water uptake of the food makes sure that it moves on through the chicken's digestive track without setting in the crop for hours taking on moisture and growing mold.  Besides the steeping makes it hard for the chickens to pick out their favorite tidbits. The picky eaters get left behind.   Anyway, this is a small part of my chickens daily food intake.  I do not try to make wild claims about this being better than sliced bread, it is simply how I keep my young chickens still running on the yard interested in food during the hottest times of Summer, make sure that they all grow up strong and healthy, and kind of sort of make sure that they don't stray to far from home.  When they see me coming with the feed bucket they come on the run.  I usually just scoop this feed out on scrap pieces of metal roofing and the young are to intent on getting their fair share to even worry about the pecking order.  They just fall into a free for all of pushing, shoving, extreme excitement, and obscene gluttony.

When food ferments or is sprouted it has been scientifically found to increase vitamins and improves the feed.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/05/traditional-preparation-methods-improve.html?m=1

Comparing moldy feed that was molding in a cargo ship to fermented feed is like comparing feeding your family from a garbage dump to feeding from a home grown garden. One is carefully cared for and takes some effort and comes from the dirt that some might say is dirty, the other is just gross and no one would approve.

Your method sounds very difficult to follow and wastes a lot of energy by boiling water. It does sound nutritious, but I would not want to follow that path, as it sounds very labor intensive without much benefit.

Not sure why you are so against others who have benefitted from feeding FF and continue to use fear tactics to get others to avoid the fermentation route. If it really was a dangerous as you try to show, all of us would be having flock-wide problems. The evidence is overwhelmingly in the fermenting and sprouting side of improved nutrition. Google "effects of sprouting and fermentation". And do some research yourself.

 

[wonkyflock14]

No worries...that poster has been here and on other threads about FF previously, each time giving false information for which he has no data and all the info is meant to discourage people from trying FF. I think we all pretty much agree the fella works for a feed company as a plant on BYC and one day we were discussing just that and he popped right up and posted, so I think he stalks these threads, is paid to do so...poorly, I imagine, as he does a very poor job of planting misinformation but he does tend to alarm newbies that have little to no experience with chickens, so it's best to just reassure them, refuting his post and then ignore him.....he has no real information or data to support his claims and he's just up to no good.

Hm, interesting Bee. Who would think the feed companies would plant people on something like this. The world is a funny place. Well, I intend to start a small batch of FF today and see how it goes.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Some of my favorite research about the nutrition boosting power of fermentation comes out of Africa (where fermentation is very popular & traditional). Here is another ... CHEMICAL AND NUTRIENT ANALYSIS OF RAW AND FERMENTED SEEDS OF Cassia tora ... http://www.cenresinpub.org/pubJune2013Ed/JPSI/Page 125-138_2168_.pdf

I've quoted the abstract of that study below ...............................................

ABSTRACT
The quantitative analysis of nutritional values, mineral content and anti-nutritional factors of raw and fermented seeds of Cassia tora was determined by using standard procedures. The seed was found to be a good source of carbohydrates (33.47% and 21.80%), for both raw and fermented seeds respectively, crude protein content was found to to be 13.79% and 17.21% for raw and fermented seeds respectively, and crude fats (16.085 and 18.36%) for raw and fermented seeds respectively. It also contains substantial quantities of copper, iron, sodium, zinc, magnesium, and calcium. The results showed a significant increase of 70.36%, 24.80%, 14.68% and 51.67%, in ash, crude protein, crude fats and crude fibre respectively, in the fermented seeds. The results also indicated a decrease in the anti-nutritional factors saponins decreased by about 7.41% with the effects of boiling and fermentation could improve some nutritional values and enhance the reduction of anti-nutritional factors.

 

[LindaB220]

I did find some articles about antibiotics appearing in spent brewers grains used as animal feeds. The grains in question are part of the biofuel industry ... a byproduct.

Never guess why the antibiotics are in there. That's right, because they are added as a way to optimize the fermentation process and get out the most fuel. NOT because they occur naturally.

NOTE: these are grains which were fermented so long and so thoroughly that every bit of alcohol was extracted from the process ... well beyond what we are doing here, which is pretty much just souring the grains.

There has been testing done to see how much of the antibiotics found in this industrial-waste-used-as-animal-feed are still active ... "Almost nil" is the answer ... well below the regulated "safety" threshold. (yay team)

I had links for every bit of that info ... but my computer ate it.

There are like 300 different types of penicillium, BTW. Moldy fruit rinds, for example ... that's how the preppers "make" penicillin. (Don't do that. And maybe don't add moldy fruit to your FF bucket.)

Isn't that what they did in the Civil War. Dampen some bread and let it mold and slap on a wound after battle. Either worked or didn't. Scary. Bread poultice.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Bee, Sub, Chicken Canoe! Help! I think I have another hen getting sick. She's been off her feed for a couple weeks, and her poop has been way less than normal. Here's a pic. I want to start her on amoxycillin if you think she has an infection. I don't want to lose another one!

Any other symptoms?

I certainly wouldn't use an antibiotic if you don't know what's wrong. Only a slight chance that a bacterial infection is involved - especially with no other symptoms.
She doesn't sound right and if she's sick, viral is more likely than bacterial, or even fungal, nutritional or environmental.

I was wondering that, myself. She hasn't laid since fall molt, and has passed these quarter-inch yellow things occasionally. There's a kind of puss inside them. Her abdomen isn't noticeably swollen. She was a regular layer last season, and laid the egg that is now my present rooster. In fact, that was close to the last eggs she's laid.

She's been on FF since the end of November.

It sure looks like a yolk to me.
That and the fact she hasn't laid an egg since fall should point away from a bacterial infection but indicate something wrong with the reproductive system. Several things could be the cause but if bacteria were one of them, she would either have fought it off herself by now or be dead already IMHO.
Has she been on layer feed since she last laid good eggs? Research urolithiasis.
http://www.hyline.com/aspx/redbook/redbook.aspx?s=5&p=36
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/pou...poultry/urate_deposition_gout_in_poultry.html

I'm not saying that is for sure what it is but a possible issue. The only way to know for sure is to find a good avian vet with poultry experience. No pun intended but they're as rare as hens teeth.