Fermented Feeds

[Brada Puhi]

Another cool thing is Fermented Plant Juice.

http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SA-7.pdf

There are all kinds of sites. One has 4 kinds of FPJ, used for different reasons. I have always meant to do it, but never got around to it. Too busy with my crazy chickens.

I believe these are other forms of EM.

Shootz den, Puhi

 

[LindaB220]

Aloha, Puhi. From what I can tell on that abstract is they switched the birds suddenly to 100% fermented feed. What a shock that must've been for the birds!

If you've not heard of EM (effective microorganisms), you might find this interesting. EM is a starter culture containing lactic acid bacteria, yeasts and purple non sulfur bacteria. I've been using myself for a couple years and pretty early on since we first got chickens this spring. I have no way of testing the results, but we do have less odor and the birds seem to like the stuff.

Here's the full text of a study done in Thailand using EM in water and to ferment feed for ducks and broilers:

http://www.infrc.or.jp/english/KNF_Data_Base_Web/PDF KNF Conf Data/C5-5-177.pdf

And another done in China on reducing odors from chicken poop using EM:

http://www.emro-asia.com/data/106.pdf

Ok, pdirt, let me get this straight. We should consider EM for layers to increase egg contents and decrease thick shells and overall healthiness but maybe not so with broilers? Great read by the way. On the study done in China I think you should do a thread on the Meat birds ETC so ALL the people griping on the stench of CX can be avoided. This needs to be out there..

 

[HollyDuckFarmer]

...
The role of yeasts is still unclear to me.  I know that too much yeast causes all kinds of problems.  Just like bacteria, there must be good yeast and bad yeast. ...

Hi! Just a thought I had on yeasts, I think wild yeasts are everywhere in the air, and last year when I had my FF system going, I think there were yeasts in it. Another thought was i had very healthy ducklings raised up from Day One on FF and it was great. Thanks for the link, I'm going to check it out.

 

[pdirt]

Glad to see I stirred some interest in EM. Just wanted to say I'll post more detailed response in a couple days when our company returns home. A couple notes till then...

The cost for EM culture will go a long ways. Perhaps you can split the cost and EM with a friend. Or if you find someone using EM perhaps they'd sell you a bit of culture to get started. And yes, there are wild yeasts in just about every part of the world present in the air. Fermented Plant Juice isnt EM, but it will have lots of lactobacillus bacteria. If you follow all of the Korean Nature Farming protocol, I believe you can make something vaguely similar to EM. I have not tried it. If I ever meet someone who can show me with confidence how to make EM from scratch, I would do it. Until then, I'll buy some EM culture every year or two.

I have not raised CX nor I doubt we will. From what I've read, normal fermented feed makes a huge difference for the smell from CX. It's easier to do normal FF, though I do think there are benefits to EM FF that you won't get in normal FF. For example, the purple non sulfur bacteria in EM are a very potent complement to lactobacillus in dealing with feces odors.

Yes there are good yeasts and bad yeasts. The yeasts in EM are good. Their main purpose is to multiply to be a food source for the other microorganisms in EM.

I'll fill in more details in a couple days.

 

[pdirt]

Also, my friend Meg has been using EM for longer than I have. She's written an excellent articles on her experience with EM. Iirc, she claims to make a quart of EM mother culture to last years, she keeps propagating it like kombucha, occasionaly adding more stock EM culture or some soil from the base of a rotting stump. I'm still not convinced that such propagation results in the same EM that you can buy or with the same benefits. But for Meg, it seems not to matter as she enjoys the benefits it creates. I might try this sometime for our chickens and see how it turns out.

http://home-n-stead.com/homestead/tipsandrecipes/ems.html

 

[LindaB220]

Also, my friend Meg has been using EM for longer than I have. She's written an excellent articles on her experience with EM. Iirc, she claims to make a quart of EM mother culture to last years, she keeps propagating it like kombucha, occasionaly adding more stock EM culture or some soil from the base of a rotting stump. I'm still not convinced that such propagation results in the same EM that you can buy or with the same benefits. But for Meg, it seems not to matter as she enjoys the benefits it creates. I might try this sometime for our chickens and see how it turns out.

http://home-n-stead.com/homestead/tipsandrecipes/ems.html

Downloaded the recipe. Thanks

 

[pdirt]

Another cool thing is Fermented Plant Juice.

http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SA-7.pdf

There are all kinds of sites. One has 4 kinds of FPJ, used for different reasons. I have always meant to do it, but never got around to it. Too busy with my crazy chickens.

I believe these are other forms of EM.

Shootz den, Puhi

Yeah, there's a lot to be learned here for sure. The Korean Natural Farming system (and variations of it) sounds wonderful. I haven't yet made FPJ for agricultural purposes. We just moved to a new climate last spring and haven't had much experience yet with gardening. I did make a type of FPJ of horsetail using EM as the starter and it was delicious, one of my favorites so far.

 

[pdirt]

Ok, pdirt, let me get this straight. We should consider EM for layers to increase egg contents and decrease thick shells and overall healthiness but maybe not so with broilers? Great read by the way. On the study done in China I think you should do a thread on the Meat birds ETC so ALL the people griping on the stench of CX can be avoided. This needs to be out there..

Yes, the studies on using EM in poultry generally do show overall increased production and health. I'm not that methodical about it so I can't claim such results. I also started them on EM almost the day we got our first (full grown) chickens so I have little to compare with. When I first read about EM, there was something about it that just rang a big "do it!" bell inside me. The more and more I learn about gut/digestive health, the more I am convinced that it is a key to overall vitality and health of any living creature. I don't like pills, whether probiotic or antibiotic pills and prefer to get my "medicine" through food. We ferment or soak a lot of our foods for maximum digestibility and thus EM just seems a natural continuum of it.

I haven't experimented a whole lot with different types of fermented feed, but I am preferring the results I get from using EM to ferment the feed. I have done some feed without any starter and am not as happy with the results. There are folks who will think it is overally complicated to use a starter, and I will agree you don't need it, but I think I get a better ferment from using EM as a starter.

We've never done CX so I can't comment on their smell. But since using EM to spray down their housing 1-2x/month in the spring/summer/fall and using EM fermented feed, I do notice much less smell with our 9 large fowl and 3 silkies. They free range in the summer so there is naturally less poop in the coop/run but in the winter, the EM FF combined with a deep litter method is keeping the smell not non-existant but barely noticable. This spring/summer we plan to raise some Dark Cornish and/or RIRs for meat so it will give a more intensive test of the EM...but then again I have never done this before so I have nothing to compare it with.

As far as this info being out there, it's not new. It started in Japan in the 80's and only about 10-15 years ago did it make it's way to the USA. It's an extra cost and effort, but one I feel completely worthwhile. Some folks are reluctant to change in part because it could take a season or two to learn how to maximize production while learning how to incorporate a new method (such as EM). Some of the claimed benefits of EM are hard to prove as well and some of them start to sound a little too good to be true and/or "woo woo". There are quite a few more scientific tests out there (similar to the links I posted earlier) about EM usage and results.

A tangent to using EM for chickens, but incredibly fascinating...using EM for bioremediation, in this case for the Fukushima fallout:

http://holisticradioprotection.wordpress.com/category/bioremediation/

 

[pdirt]

Hi! Just a thought I had on yeasts, I think wild yeasts are everywhere in the air, and last year when I had my FF system going, I think there were yeasts in it. Another thought was i had very healthy ducklings raised up from Day One on FF and it was great. Thanks for the link, I'm going to check it out.

Yes, yeasts (and bacteria) are everywhere. Yeasts typically produce alcohol, but need oxygen to do so. Raw ACV can then turn that alcohol into more ACV, but as far as I know, it takes longer for the ACV do this than the time typically allowed in a FF setup. The ACV mother also needs oxygen but to be undisturbed (again, as far I know) in order to convert alcohol to vinegar.

So this is a small part of my reasoning for doing EM FF rather than the typical water/feed or water/ACV/feed method. The later methods involve lots of oxygen and stirring and *could* produce a fair amount of alcohol. Maybe the alcohol isn't as bad for chickens as some claim it to be, I don't know, but I'd rather not feed it on a regular basis to my birds. I also think it's totally possibly to have a FF setup that doesn't produce much if any alcohol. I also make my EM FF in batches, rather than a continuous setup. I typically mix up a bucket of it (with a tight lid) every 7-10 days.

From my understanding, the yeasts can function as food for the lactic acid bacteria (yeasts and LABs are present in both regular and EM fermented feed). My hunch is that the LABs eat the yeasts before much alcohol is produced. However, if you create ideal environments for the yeasts to proliferate, you may end up with more yeasts than the LABs can consume, then you will certainly have alcohol producing. So, for a general rule, I don't think it's wise to regularly stir fermented feed, which will oxygenate the mixture, creating an ideal environment for more yeasts. In the case of EM fermented feed, it's claimed that any stirring or disturbing of the feed while it's fermenting can cause the ferment to go "off". And hey, it's one less thing to do!

The reason why you regularly stir sourdough starter is to increase yeast production which produce the bubbles that make for fluffy bread. They also produce alcohol and you can smell this on a mature/ripe sourdough starter.

If your FF setup is working, please disregard anything I've just said. Because there are a lot of factors that go into lacto-fermentation and these are just the points I've learned over the last few years.

 

[LindaB220]

Yes, the studies on using EM in poultry generally do show overall increased production and health. I'm not that methodical about it so I can't claim such results. I also started them on EM almost the day we got our first (full grown) chickens so I have little to compare with. When I first read about EM, there was something about it that just rang a big "do it!" bell inside me. The more and more I learn about gut/digestive health, the more I am convinced that it is a key to overall vitality and health of any living creature. I don't like pills, whether probiotic or antibiotic pills and prefer to get my "medicine" through food. We ferment or soak a lot of our foods for maximum digestibility and thus EM just seems a natural continuum of it.

I haven't experimented a whole lot with different types of fermented feed, but I am preferring the results I get from using EM to ferment the feed. I have done some feed without any starter and am not as happy with the results. There are folks who will think it is overally complicated to use a starter, and I will agree you don't need it, but I think I get a better ferment from using EM as a starter.

We've never done CX so I can't comment on their smell. But since using EM to spray down their housing 1-2x/month in the spring/summer/fall and using EM fermented feed, I do notice much less smell with our 9 large fowl and 3 silkies. They free range in the summer so there is naturally less poop in the coop/run but in the winter, the EM FF combined with a deep litter method is keeping the smell not non-existant but barely noticable. This spring/summer we plan to raise some Dark Cornish and/or RIRs for meat so it will give a more intensive test of the EM...but then again I have never done this before so I have nothing to compare it with.

As far as this info being out there, it's not new. It started in Japan in the 80's and only about 10-15 years ago did it make it's way to the USA. It's an extra cost and effort, but one I feel completely worthwhile. Some folks are reluctant to change in part because it could take a season or two to learn how to maximize production while learning how to incorporate a new method (such as EM). Some of the claimed benefits of EM are hard to prove as well and some of them start to sound a little too good to be true and/or "woo woo". There are quite a few more scientific tests out there (similar to the links I posted earlier) about EM usage and results.

A tangent to using EM for chickens, but incredibly fascinating...using EM for bioremediation, in this case for the Fukushima fallout:

http://holisticradioprotection.wordpress.com/category/bioremediation/

I'm really interested in the dual purpose factor. Using it as bokashi for the garden and compost and as FF I'll be doing deep litter also..