Flock decisions

[bigz1983]

Ok I need some advice.
We have 2 flocks of chickens separated in 2 different coops.

Coop # 1 has
-1 Buff Orpington Rooster 2.5 years old same age as hens below
-7 Buff Orpington hens 2.5 years old will be 3 years old March 2021
-5 Australorps hens 2.5 years year old will be 3 years old April 2021
- 2 Barred Rock hens 3 years old will be 4 years old May 2021
- 1 Buff Orpington hen that will be 2 in October
- 1 Silver laced Wyandotte hen that will be 3 in May 2021

Coop # 2 has
All less than a year old
-8 young large fowl Cochin pullets colors barred, splash and blue all under a year old none currently laying
-2 young large fowl Cochin cockerels blue colored
-1 young crested French Crevecoeur cockerel black colored
-1 young purebred Blue Amerucana cockerel
-1 young purebred Black Amerucana pullet

We bought the Cochins because they go broody and my plan is for them to stay in coop #2 and raise chicks next year

The original reason we got Buff Orpingtons was because we were told they go broody and over 2 years later none of them do

We think Coop #1 would be best for egg layers

We plan on butchering the young cockerels in coop #2 except for 1
We are thinking of keeping a blue Cochin
Would Purebred Cochins sell higher than mixes?
Which breed of rooster would be best to keep for coop #2?

Our flock in Coop #1 is getting older and none of them go broody like we wanted and their not high production egg laying breeds
Should we sell them or butcher them and get something high production like Rhode island reds, ISA browns, Black sex links or Leghorns?

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Great idea. What you want to do is a lot of what I've done with my flock over the last 10 years. I'll give you thoughts from my experiences below to glean from.

BROODING PEN COOP #2
As you stated, Coop #2 is to be your brooding coop with the Cochins. Personally, I'd get rid of all other birds out of that coop to allow the 1st year Cochin mothers privacy and non-interference from roosters and unnecessary non-brooding birds (very important to prevent chick/egg trampling unless you have gates/dividers...but that is to be your designated brooding coop so remove unnecessary traffic). Why? You need to establish good brooding habits with your Cochin mothers in that coop. Flock interference can create havoc with first time moms. (That can change as you develop the flock...see sustainable paragraph below). You want these ladies queens in their palace with chick friendly nesting boxes for every mother, if necessary, (sisters often brood well together, but not always the first year). You also will need to learn how to handle broody hatching as much as the mothers do. (Setting eggs, marked, at the same time; knowing which mothers will set well and which mothers are easily disturbed, how to prevent a hen from getting confused with what nest she is setting and leaving eggs cold, eggs being trampled as hens fight over nests...etc. etc.) The first year will have a learning curve as you learn how to create a successful stable of broody hens that produce healthy, happy chicks that survive to adulthood.

After hatching, the brooding coop then also turns into a very nice grow out coop as mothers raise their chicks. (This is the marvel and wonder of natural brooding...THEY do ALL the work...raising stronger, better, faster growing chicks than artificial raising, once you get over a few beginning bumps). The hens teach flock manners to the chicks and fledge at about age 4 to 8 weeks depending on the mother. At that point, it is fairly easy to transfer the young pullets to your main flock (I preferred about 10 weeks of age).

The only reason to keep a rooster in your broody pen would be for a dual brooding/grow out AND breeding pen as this pen will become its own subflock. However, this only works if the rooster is a really good father and good natured overall, not overly harassing the gals for romantic attention or chasing young chicks. (My aging Barnevelder fits this bill being an excellent father and key to the single Cream Legbar I keep for Olive Eggers in with my bantam Cochins that hatch their eggs...they are a small flock of themselves and it works well for me with babies being raised in a good flock structure to be transferred to the main flock when older).

I personally would skip any rooster in that pen the first year. After that, in light of what rooster to keep, pure breeds are always the best value for resale. So, if we consider that broody pen, you'd need a very chill Cochin rooster to breed Cochins. Cochins are usually pretty good-natured, so it is not inconceivable to find or grow out a nice Cochin roo....and you have two to choose from. Choose the one with a good temperament, good health, good conformation. There is no initial reason to breed to the standard Cochin mothers from another breed as you could reduce the genetics for brooding or change the temperament or breed from the wrong mothers (passing along poor mothering). You would also dilute your Cochin line for resale, and you might alter body conformation of the Cochins in a way you may not prefer for brooding....but see sustainable paragraph below. Most of my brooding mothers are solid for about 5 years of age.

COOP #1 EGG PRODUCTION
As you stated, Coop #1 is to be your egg laying coop. Then make it such. If the birds are eating but not producing (my Buff Orps never did) nor brooding (my Buff Orps never did), then you have to ask yourself why you are keeping them. If they are not a good egg layer, then why keep them. So, I personally would definitely plan to phase those BO out. Mine ate a LOT, were generally cranky, and never went into a decent brood. They got voted off the property (I actually was able to sell them to someone who wanted BOs).

If you really want egg production, it is hard to beat the sex links/production reds, though they pretty much "play out" by the 2nd year, so you will constantly need to replace them with feed store chicks if you want commercially grown super producers that the hatcheries spend years developing. But they do play out quickly due to the genetic selection of over production. Almost every single time, especially the Red Sex Link Laying machines, these birds typically succumb to internal diseases by year 2 or 3 latest...mine to the last one. (And I did RSLs for the first 5 years keeping an "egg coop" as you are planning). Some other breeds produce decently well and have longer life expectancy/production, but it is pretty hard to beat the commercial production breeds for sheer egg production if you want to sell eggs....but see sustainable paragraph below. I personally did really well with Black Sex Links and Production Black/California Greys who were longer lived than the RSL's. My Production Reds were simply too obnoxious, a common trait, so I got rid of them. Barred Rocks are also decent layers with longer laying longevity (And if you pick a solid colored roo, preferably red based, you get sex links!). So you need to consider what will further your egg coop as to what hens will remain and what rooster would benefit. Your Broody Coop will be the hatching system for the eggs from your Egg Coop. It is easy to buy desired breeder eggs to set under broody hens (local always better than mail order for success). I built my Egg Coop line using local breeder eggs set under my broodies (which line is focused on egg color than straight production...though still good production.) (I've produced Olive Eggers and rich terra cotta brown layers).

As you perfect brooding, and get to know your hens, in time, you can place feed store chicks under a broody to foster and replenish commercial production layers if you want to go that renewal route each year....but that is more problematic not generally for the hen but because the feed store chicks have lost a lot of their natural instinct and will fear the hen such that they wander off and strand themselves causing "stupid chick" deaths. With some 3xperience it is possible to fosters feed store chicks though my success rate never matched hatching from eggs.

So your decision for Coop #2, the Egg Coop, will be to focus on your egg layers. Keep only those breeds that will produce eggs well. Introduce only those breeds that will further your egg and flock goals. Keep only those roosters that will further that goal. I chose color and production, so I built my flock with Cream Legbar hens from purchased eggs set under my broodies as well as Isbar Marans OE. I, having a few years experience, was able to foster a Barnevelder rooster chick from a feed store. That became the back bone of my own generations of Olive Eggers. I purchased feed store RSL's and BSL's and California Greys, that became the backbone of my egg layers. At first I artificially brooded them, as they weren't always the brightest chicks in the brooder, but in time I got enough broody raised. I also used the brooded RSL to boost egg production for the Barnevelder line, plus RSL have a common Terra Cotta tone too.

With that in mind, your Ameraucana roosters would be the better choice as you can create your own line of blue-green layers which will boost personal enjoyment (my opinion) as well as sales if you go that way as they are popular with the public. They generally are a decent laying line, and over your current gals (BR, Australorp, Wyandotte) will continue producing decent egg layers. You can help increase production by injecting RSLs and BR and BSL in years or even Brown Leghorn which I find less flighty than White plus you don't introduce dominant white. I personally avoid white if they free range due due to hawks.

SUSTAINABLE FLOCK
And THEN the fun began. As I got lazier and lazier going to the feed store for chicks, with gee, all the fertile eggs laying around, and my Barnevelder rooster was allowed to frequent the egg laying flock before I kept one of his sons, I discovered that the 2nd and 3rd generation hens became hardier with being mixed breeds. I had good egg production AND longevity. My laying hens now often lay to 4 to 5 years of age. I have had zero disease in almost 4 years (other than mites and worms from living on a small acreage).

Amazingly in my Broody Coop, chicks hatched under a broody tend to grow into hens that will brood better. Allowing my Barnevelder equal time in with the Brooding Coop produced wonderful 3/4 size Cochin-Barnevelders that brood well and are bigger than the bantams. There is a genetic as well as environmental factor in brooding. But then I noticed in the main Egg Laying coop I was also now getting large fowl brooders! I used to have to solely hatch in my Brooding Coop for chick success. Now, I can hatch in the main coop directly from some of my egg layers.

For creating your own sustainable flock, think GOALS. What will I get from this mix? Heavier carcass (generally reduces egg production). Better laying (almost always the average of the father's line and the mother's line and typically reduces the body size). Better temperament? (Learn your rooster and hen temperaments to decide who will cool a flighty nature.) Feather color? THAT gets complicated and you will spend lots of time on the genetic calculator here: https://kippenjungle.nl/Overzicht.htm#kipcalculator

I now have Barnevelder-RSL mixes that lay well but are much, much hardier. I've line bred back to grandpa Barnevlder such that I now have decent quality Barnevlder 7/8s that look like a Barnevelder (lovely double laced) and lay the desired terra cotta color. I have olive egg layers, now going on F3 and F4 (3rd and 4th gen), developed from Isbar-Marans and Cream Legbar that are less flighty. My olive eggers are good production and longevity. I now have carefully selected my grandpa Barney's replacement with an F3 son who is the spit and image of his daddy in color, conformation, and excellent temperament. (Egg color TBA as my grow out pullets come into lay this summer).

So all in all, I now have sustainable "mutts" as none of my birds other than the original breeding stock are pure. I also find that as you breed away from commercial lines, injecting breeder lines, and most importantly line breeding back to top parents selecting only the best to keep, I have a really adept flock at brooding. laying, and chick raising.

Just my experiences. Hope that made some sense.

LofMc

 

[bigz1983]

Great idea. What you want to do is a lot of what I've done with my flock over the last 10 years. I'll give you thoughts from my experiences below to glean from.

BROODING PEN COOP #2
As you stated, Coop #2 is to be your brooding coop with the Cochins. Personally, I'd get rid of all other birds out of that coop to allow the 1st year Cochin mothers privacy and non-interference from roosters and unnecessary non-brooding birds (very important to prevent chick/egg trampling unless you have gates/dividers...but that is to be your designated brooding coop so remove unnecessary traffic). Why? You need to establish good brooding habits with your Cochin mothers in that coop. Flock interference can create havoc with first time moms. (That can change as you develop the flock...see sustainable paragraph below). You want these ladies queens in their palace with chick friendly nesting boxes for every mother, if necessary, (sisters often brood well together, but not always the first year). You also will need to learn how to handle broody hatching as much as the mothers do. (Setting eggs, marked, at the same time; knowing which mothers will set well and which mothers are easily disturbed, how to prevent a hen from getting confused with what nest she is setting and leaving eggs cold, eggs being trampled as hens fight over nests...etc. etc.) The first year will have a learning curve as you learn how to create a successful stable of broody hens that produce healthy, happy chicks that survive to adulthood.

After hatching, the brooding coop then also turns into a very nice grow out coop as mothers raise their chicks. (This is the marvel and wonder of natural brooding...THEY do ALL the work...raising stronger, better, faster growing chicks than artificial raising, once you get over a few beginning bumps). The hens teach flock manners to the chicks and fledge at about age 4 to 8 weeks depending on the mother. At that point, it is fairly easy to transfer the young pullets to your main flock (I preferred about 10 weeks of age).

The only reason to keep a rooster in your broody pen would be for a dual brooding/grow out AND breeding pen as this pen will become its own subflock. However, this only works if the rooster is a really good father and good natured overall, not overly harassing the gals for romantic attention or chasing young chicks. (My aging Barnevelder fits this bill being an excellent father and key to the single Cream Legbar I keep for Olive Eggers in with my bantam Cochins that hatch their eggs...they are a small flock of themselves and it works well for me with babies being raised in a good flock structure to be transferred to the main flock when older).

I personally would skip any rooster in that pen the first year. After that, in light of what rooster to keep, pure breeds are always the best value for resale. So, if we consider that broody pen, you'd need a very chill Cochin rooster to breed Cochins. Cochins are usually pretty good-natured, so it is not inconceivable to find or grow out a nice Cochin roo....and you have two to choose from. Choose the one with a good temperament, good health, good conformation. There is no initial reason to breed to the standard Cochin mothers from another breed as you could reduce the genetics for brooding or change the temperament or breed from the wrong mothers (passing along poor mothering). You would also dilute your Cochin line for resale, and you might alter body conformation of the Cochins in a way you may not prefer for brooding....but see sustainable paragraph below. Most of my brooding mothers are solid for about 5 years of age.

COOP #1 EGG PRODUCTION
As you stated, Coop #1 is to be your egg laying coop. Then make it such. If the birds are eating but not producing (my Buff Orps never did) nor brooding (my Buff Orps never did), then you have to ask yourself why you are keeping them. If they are not a good egg layer, then why keep them. So, I personally would definitely plan to phase those BO out. Mine ate a LOT, were generally cranky, and never went into a decent brood. They got voted off the property (I actually was able to sell them to someone who wanted BOs).

If you really want egg production, it is hard to beat the sex links/production reds, though they pretty much "play out" by the 2nd year, so you will constantly need to replace them with feed store chicks if you want commercially grown super producers that the hatcheries spend years developing. But they do play out quickly due to the genetic selection of over production. Almost every single time, especially the Red Sex Link Laying machines, these birds typically succumb to internal diseases by year 2 or 3 latest...mine to the last one. (And I did RSLs for the first 5 years keeping an "egg coop" as you are planning). Some other breeds produce decently well and have longer life expectancy/production, but it is pretty hard to beat the commercial production breeds for sheer egg production if you want to sell eggs....but see sustainable paragraph below. I personally did really well with Black Sex Links and Production Black/California Greys who were longer lived than the RSL's. My Production Reds were simply too obnoxious, a common trait, so I got rid of them. Barred Rocks are also decent layers with longer laying longevity (And if you pick a solid colored roo, preferably red based, you get sex links!). So you need to consider what will further your egg coop as to what hens will remain and what rooster would benefit. Your Broody Coop will be the hatching system for the eggs from your Egg Coop. It is easy to buy desired breeder eggs to set under broody hens (local always better than mail order for success). I built my Egg Coop line using local breeder eggs set under my broodies (which line is focused on egg color than straight production...though still good production.) (I've produced Olive Eggers and rich terra cotta brown layers).

As you perfect brooding, and get to know your hens, in time, you can place feed store chicks under a broody to foster and replenish commercial production layers if you want to go that renewal route each year....but that is more problematic not generally for the hen but because the feed store chicks have lost a lot of their natural instinct and will fear the hen such that they wander off and strand themselves causing "stupid chick" deaths. With some 3xperience it is possible to fosters feed store chicks though my success rate never matched hatching from eggs.

So your decision for Coop #2, the Egg Coop, will be to focus on your egg layers. Keep only those breeds that will produce eggs well. Introduce only those breeds that will further your egg and flock goals. Keep only those roosters that will further that goal. I chose color and production, so I built my flock with Cream Legbar hens from purchased eggs set under my broodies as well as Isbar Marans OE. I, having a few years experience, was able to foster a Barnevelder rooster chick from a feed store. That became the back bone of my own generations of Olive Eggers. I purchased feed store RSL's and BSL's and California Greys, that became the backbone of my egg layers. At first I artificially brooded them, as they weren't always the brightest chicks in the brooder, but in time I got enough broody raised. I also used the brooded RSL to boost egg production for the Barnevelder line, plus RSL have a common Terra Cotta tone too.

With that in mind, your Ameraucana roosters would be the better choice as you can create your own line of blue-green layers which will boost personal enjoyment (my opinion) as well as sales if you go that way as they are popular with the public. They generally are a decent laying line, and over your current gals (BR, Australorp, Wyandotte) will continue producing decent egg layers. You can help increase production by injecting RSLs and BR and BSL in years or even Brown Leghorn which I find less flighty than White plus you don't introduce dominant white. I personally avoid white if they free range due due to hawks.

SUSTAINABLE FLOCK
And THEN the fun began. As I got lazier and lazier going to the feed store for chicks, with gee, all the fertile eggs laying around, and my Barnevelder rooster was allowed to frequent the egg laying flock before I kept one of his sons, I discovered that the 2nd and 3rd generation hens became hardier with being mixed breeds. I had good egg production AND longevity. My laying hens now often lay to 4 to 5 years of age. I have had zero disease in almost 4 years (other than mites and worms from living on a small acreage).

Amazingly in my Broody Coop, chicks hatched under a broody tend to grow into hens that will brood better. Allowing my Barnevelder equal time in with the Brooding Coop produced wonderful 3/4 size Cochin-Barnevelders that brood well and are bigger than the bantams. There is a genetic as well as environmental factor in brooding. But then I noticed in the main Egg Laying coop I was also now getting large fowl brooders! I used to have to solely hatch in my Brooding Coop for chick success. Now, I can hatch in the main coop directly from some of my egg layers.

For creating your own sustainable flock, think GOALS. What will I get from this mix? Heavier carcass (generally reduces egg production). Better laying (almost always the average of the father's line and the mother's line and typically reduces the body size). Better temperament? (Learn your rooster and hen temperaments to decide who will cool a flighty nature.) Feather color? THAT gets complicated and you will spend lots of time on the genetic calculator here: https://kippenjungle.nl/Overzicht.htm#kipcalculator

I now have Barnevelder-RSL mixes that lay well but are much, much hardier. I've line bred back to grandpa Barnevlder such that I now have decent quality Barnevlder 7/8s that look like a Barnevelder (lovely double laced) and lay the desired terra cotta color. I have olive egg layers, now going on F3 and F4 (3rd and 4th gen), developed from Isbar-Marans and Cream Legbar that are less flighty. My olive eggers are good production and longevity. I now have carefully selected my grandpa Barney's replacement with an F3 son who is the spit and image of his daddy in color, conformation, and excellent temperament. (Egg color TBA as my grow out pullets come into lay this summer).

So all in all, I now have sustainable "mutts" as none of my birds other than the original breeding stock are pure. I also find that as you breed away from commercial lines, injecting breeder lines, and most importantly line breeding back to top parents selecting only the best to keep, I have a really adept flock at brooding. laying, and chick raising.

Just my experiences. Hope that made some sense.

LofMc

Thanks for all the advice.
We are thinking about getting black sex links for the egg coop.
We have never had those before but they live longer than Red sex links?
Your right about ISA browns/Red sex links we have had those before and they are really mean to other chickens.
Really hard to integrate new hens with them.
Ok so Cochin roosters can live with broody hens and won't be a issue?
We have 2 blue Cochin roosters do I keep the rooster that is best behaved with the hens brooding chicks?

 

[Lady of McCamley]

In my experience, yes, BSLs lived longer and remained more productive than my RSLs by at least another year, even 2. My RSLs pretty much died by 2 years of age or were so played out as to be worthless. My BSLs and CalGreys were much better, as were my Barred Rocks.

As to your Brooder Coop #2, as suggested, having a rooster in with the broodies the first year *could* create a problem because of the newness of the Cochin hens to the idea of brooding and the youthfulness of the rooster.

Teen roosters are not necessarily delicate with their amorous attentions. In a mature flock, especially when chicks are raised in the flock, the young boys are taught manners by the older hens, and the senior rooster, so that they have to woo and swoon the ladies to get any action.

However, teen boys raised with sibling females will often bully the girls and can be quite raucous when hormones hit, which could interrupt the brooding needs of the girls and possibly put chicks in harms way.

Which is why it may be very wise to let your Cochin rooster sit out a year with the Egg Layers, though you'll pollute your Egg Laying goals with Cochin blood, which is not high productive laying. You may need a bachelor pad for the Cochin rooster that first year, or pull him for 30 days before you set eggs. Or pull him when the girls go broody, if he isn't being a total jerk to his siblings already.

But it depends on the rooster. Some roos are gentlemen from youth. Others, well simply make it to freezer camp faster than those who aren't. Never keep a roo that isn't kindly to his ladies, patient with his chicks, and polite to people. I've raised enough roosters to know that most of it is genetics (maybe 90%) and 10% handling.

HTH
LofMc

 

[bigz1983]

In my experience, yes, BSLs lived longer and remained more productive than my RSLs by at least another year, even 2. My RSLs pretty much died by 2 years of age or were so played out as to be worthless. My BSLs and CalGreys were much better, as were my Barred Rocks.

As to your Brooder Coop #2, as suggested, having a rooster in with the broodies the first year *could* create a problem because of the newness of the Cochin hens to the idea of brooding and the youthfulness of the rooster.

Teen roosters are not necessarily delicate with their amorous attentions. In a mature flock, especially when chicks are raised in the flock, the young boys are taught manners by the older hens, and the senior rooster, so that they have to woo and swoon the ladies to get any action.

However, teen boys raised with sibling females will often bully the girls and can be quite raucous when hormones hit, which could interrupt the brooding needs of the girls and possibly put chicks in harms way.

Which is why it may be very wise to let your Cochin rooster sit out a year with the Egg Layers, though you'll pollute your Egg Laying goals with Cochin blood, which is not high productive laying. You may need a bachelor pad for the Cochin rooster that first year, or pull him for 30 days before you set eggs. Or pull him when the girls go broody, if he isn't being a total jerk to his siblings already.

But it depends on the rooster. Some roos are gentlemen from youth. Others, well simply make it to freezer camp faster than those who aren't. Never keep a roo that isn't kindly to his ladies, patient with his chicks, and polite to people. I've raised enough roosters to know that most of it is genetics (maybe 90%) and 10% handling.

HTH
LofMc

Ok we have 5 different chicken coops.
2 big coops and 3 small coops.
2 small coops are empty right now.
So we can separate the roosters from the broody coop.

For the egg coop we would like to have black sex links for brown eggs, 3 white leghorns for white eggs and 3 hatchery stock Easter eggers for fun.
We had a barred rock hen go broody and put some pure bred black and blue Amerucana (we got from a local breeder) chicks under her.
She is in a small coop with them now.

Our goal is get the egg coop with the buff orpingtons, australorps cleaned out by spring and then get the egg breeds chicks.
Hopefully I can sell the older hens.

Thanks for insight its very helpful.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Sounds like a good plan. It should work really well. Hopefully those Cochins will live up to their name reputation and become good broody hens. For me, having a broody stable is wonderful. My Cochins (bantam) and Silkies (bantam), between the 3 or 4 of them, given the year, are constantly going into brooding or raising a just hatched batch. I pretty much could count on somebody going broody about every 3 to 4 months. It is how I built my flock while keeping egg layers in the main coop. In time you can probably get your experienced Cochin mothers to foster feed store chicks (with the caveat that feed store fosters have a higher "stupid chick" rate). Then, your life will be free from artificial heat lamps, dust, and mess.

Good luck.
LofMc