Frostbite!

[Chickie-chan]

There is 16 sq. ft. with a height of 5 ft. for three chickens. I use straw for my litter and I clean up where they roost everyday and the coop everyweek.
When I went out there today, most of the dead, black flakes have fallen off of my leghorn's comb. Showing healthy red and pink underneath! Also, I have been taking the water out of the coop everynight and putting it back in the next day before leaving for school.

My brother suggested making a hat for her too!

 

[janinepeters]

OK, space and litter management sound adequate. When you say 80% humidity, is that inside the coop? Is that the same as it is outside the coop?

 

[Chickie-chan]

80% is outside the coop and I would guess not the same as inside, since my ventilation is poor.

 

[janinepeters]

80% is outside the coop and I would guess not the same as inside, since my ventilation is poor.

I would check humidity level inside the coop before going crazy trying to increase ventilation. You can get a hygrometer for about $10 on Amazon. Even with excellent ventilation, the best you can achieve is to equal the humidity outside the coop. You won't get lower, unless you REDUCE ventilation and get a dehumidifier, but that's not good because chickens need fresh air to breathe. Ventilation allows good air exchange, so that conditions in the coop can be the same as outside the coop. This helps reduce humidity only when humidity is lower outdoors than inside the coop.

You cannot control the humidity level outdoors: This speaks to the importance of winter hardy breeds that also have rose, pea, or walnut combs. These are much less vulnerable to frostbite.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

There is 16 sq. ft. with a height of 5 ft. for three chickens. I use straw for my litter and I clean up where they roost everyday and the coop everyweek.
When I went out there today, most of the dead, black flakes have fallen off of my leghorn's comb. Showing healthy red and pink underneath! Also, I have been taking the water out of the coop everynight and putting it back in the next day before leaving for school.

My brother suggested making a hat for her too!

There's a few problems that I can quickly see ...

1. Putting a hat on a chicken would surely be humiliating (the others will upload videos, and constantly tease her ~'-)
2. The lower ceiling means less *cubic* footage, which further increases the required air exchange -- ammonia can accumulate, along w/ the moisture, which is a second problem.
3. The straw, as a covering, accumulates/retains far more moisture than shavings or other options would, and it rots, and provides an excellent medium upon which bacteria, mold and mildew grows.
   

A few things that you should do now, which might completely solve your problem ...

1. Make sure any run-off from the roof, and the lay of the land surrounding it, is guided away from the coop (if there's no ditches, it most often winds up soakin' the dirt beneath )-;~
2. Switch out the straw for somethin' that's gonna help keep the floor dry ...
3. You're gonna have to put some type of vents in, so you can get the moisture out, and fresh air in. Again? Freezing temperatures are no problem for dry birds; the problem is the high humidity, which condenses upon their combs and keeps everything wet.

 

[janinepeters]

Freezing temperatures are no problem for dry birds; the problem is the high humidity, which condenses upon their combs and keeps everything wet.

Now this is where the emphasis on humidity gets overdone. Humidity is one contributing factor. Cold is a major factor. Exposed surface area relative to volume of the comb, is also a major factor (that is, large plate-like single combs are much more vulnerable than small, thick pea combs).

I know of MANY cases of frostbite on single comb birds living in coops with excellent ventilation, sufficient space, and good litter management.

See the following thread, where someone actually measured humidity in the coop. This is in extremely cold climate, but I know of plenty of cases in my own much milder state of Mass.:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/722951/help-with-frostbite-alaska-coop

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Now this is where the emphasis on humidity gets overdone. Humidity is one contributing factor. Cold is a major factor. Exposed surface area relative to volume of the comb, is also a major factor (that is, large plate-like single combs are much more vulnerable than small, thick pea combs).

I know of MANY cases of frostbite on single comb birds living in coops with excellent ventilation, sufficient space, and good litter management.

See the following thread, where someone actually measured humidity in the coop. This is in extremely cold climate, but I know of plenty of cases in my own much milder state of Mass.:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/722951/help-with-frostbite-alaska-coop

Yeah .. I shoulda worded that better, for sure: Clearly, there's a point where it's simply far too cold for chickens, no matter how dry it is. And, there are quite a few other factors, such as the specific reputations some breeds earn for cold hardiness, even beyond the aspects of their comb ... speaking of which, have never seen this worded better: "Exposed surface area relative to volume of the comb ..."

But, for the very same reasons that you've so eloquently defined the variables of a specific chicken's comb, there's clearly just as direct a relationship between humidity and temperature within the lower range of temperatures as there is in the higher range (when heat stress becomes a threat). Air speed is also a factor, just as they calculate 'wind chill' when tellin' folks the weather. And, there'd be many other factors that'd have an affect.

But, that's what might help folks understand this better ... by studying the old-fashioned Temperature-Humidity Index, which has been in use for many years for predicting dangers from heat stress, the relationship can better be seen. And, I apologize for diggin' further, but I love mathematical equations, and developing ways to predict results, and studies that do this (which oughta be done for the lower side of a chicken's comfort zone ~'-)


From a study entitled:
Effect of Temperature-Humidity Index on Live Performance in Broiler Chickens*
*heat* stress related (edited to clarify ~'-)
The THI equations developed for poultry to date are shown in equations 1 through 4:

THIbroilers = 0.85 Tdb + 0.15 Twb (1, Tao and Xin, 2003)
THIlayers = 0.6 Tdb + 0.4 Twb (2, Zulovich and DeShazer, 1990)
THIhen turkeys = 0.74 Tdb + 0.26 Twb (3, Xin et al., 1992)
THItom turkeys = 0.42 Tdb + 0.58 Twb (4, Brown-Brandl et al., 1997)

where: THI = temperature-humidity index, °C
Tdb = dry-bulb temperature, °C
Twb = wet-bulb temperature, °C

I noticed that, in all but one of these equations? Tdb is given more weight than Twb, which may support your belief that temperature is of more importance. But, clearly, anything wet looses heat most quickly :: edit :: when temperatures are low :: /edit ::, and would thereby freeze at higher temperatures. It'd sure be good to know what that range is, and for each specific breed ... speaking of which:

Henderson's Chicken Breed Chart is certainly worth careful consideration when choosing breeds, esp. where environments may be extreme.

 

[janinepeters]

From one such study of THI's affect upon live performance ...


Henderson's Chicken Breed Chart is certainly worth careful consideration when choosing breeds, esp. where environments may be extreme.

Just so no one gets confused, the first link above is about the effect of the temperature-humidity index on broiler production efficiency. It has nothing to do with frostbite.

Henderson's rating of cold hardiness of chicken breeds (second link above), is a subjective rating based on his personal experience and perhaps what he has heard and read. And, when people talk about cold hardiness of chickens, they are referring to survival and productivity in winter, not vulnerability of the comb to frostbite. For example, he rates plymouth rocks as "very cold hardy", and indeed, many of the hens produce very well all winter. But the occasional hen with particularly large comb, and many roosters, do indeed suffer frostbite to the comb. It does affect rooster fertility. It might or might not affect egg production (I have never seen evidence one way or the other), but even if it does not, it's probably painful for the bird. Most people who have experienced frostbite say it hurts.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Just so no one gets confused, the first link above is about the effect of the temperature-humidity index on broiler production efficiency. It has nothing to do with frostbite.

Henderson's rating of cold hardiness of chicken breeds (second link above), is a subjective rating based on his personal experience and perhaps what he has heard and read. And, when people talk about cold hardiness of chickens, they are referring to survival and productivity in winter, not vulnerability of the comb to frostbite. For example, he rates plymouth rocks as "very cold hardy", and indeed, many of the hens produce very well all winter. But the occasional hen with particularly large comb, and many roosters, do indeed suffer frostbite to the comb. It does affect rooster fertility. It might or might not affect egg production (I have never seen evidence one way or the other), but even if it does not, it's probably painful for the bird. Most people who have experienced frostbite say it hurts.

If you're hopin' to keep folks from gettin' confused by my words? It's an exercise in futility ~'-)

I've still found no studies on frostbite ... sure wouldn't wanna be the chicken picked for that one, either. In addition to the area/mass ratio, I'd imagine the size/number of blood vessels in the combs/wattles would have a considerable impact on vulnerability as well. I know that feeding them heavily just before nightfall helps, as it's been practiced around here for many years; and, it used to get much colder, way back when ...

As to the Henderson's table? I'm sure it is subjective/anecdotal, but it sure seems like a good place to start ... as to the pain? Chickens don't feel things in nearly the same ways we do ... not something I've ever personally done, but trimming of the comb/wattles on 'em is very common, and birds apparently offer very little resistance to havin' the procedure performed, due to there bein' hardly any nerves (google poultry dewattling/dubbing for more).

 

[janinepeters]

I'd imagine the size/number of blood vessels in the combs/wattles would have a considerable impact on vulnerability as well.

As to the Henderson's table? I'm sure it is subjective/anecdotal, but it sure seems like a good place to start

as to the pain? Chickens don't feel things in nearly the same ways we do ... not something I've ever personally done, but trimming of the comb/wattles on 'em is very common, and birds apparently offer very little resistance to havin' the procedure performed, due to there bein' hardly any nerves

Yes on relationship between vascularity of the tissue and vulnerability to frostbite. I alluded to this in the AK/frostbite thread.

Henderson's rating of cold hardiness does not take into consideration vulnerability of comb to frostbite. This is easy to see because he says certain because he says certain single comb breeds are more cold hardy than certain breeds with other comb types. It is well known that single combs are more vulnerable to frostbite than pea, walnut, or rose comb. Some single comb breeds may be generally more cold hardy than certain pea comb breeds, because there are factors other than comb type that determine overall hardiness.

Chickens probably do not feel pain in exactly the same way people do. Their experience probably is different - but different does not necessarily mean they suffer less. We do not know exactly how they experience it and we never will, because we are not chickens. But they absolutely do feel pain -- that's why they withdraw from painful stimuli, such as when you accidentally step on one's foot. Interestingly, they sometimes lay motionless when people do things like cut off their body parts or cut them open without any anethetic. This does not prove they don't feel pain. Animals have evolved to hide it when suffering, because making a fuss attracts predators. In the case of chickens, showing pain attracts not only predators but also the bullies in the flock. People, on the other hand, evolved to help other humans in pain, so it is adaptive for people to show when in pain.

But as interesting as a debate on an animal's experience of pain could be, it might be more helpful to the OP to stick with frostbite to the comb.