general feeding question

[Acre4Me]

Raise the feeder-this helps a lot. Switch to pellets when you can.

Adding water to feed, without the fermenting, will achieve the same result of less mess. Personally, I have neither the interest in creating space for fermentation, managing it, cleaning up after it, nor cleaning up if the fermenting goes to far (ferments out of the container). If others want to do this, that is fine. The “better for you argument” is merely anecdotal. Those microbes are eating up parts of the feed to grow and to create the bubbles, thereby altering the feed balance. Maybe it is better, but if only slightly better, it doesn’t seem worth the effort to me. However, if it works in someone’s daily plans and the birds eat it up-that is great!

FWIW, my birds ADORE wet feed—mmm, mmm...thick pancake batter consistency is their fav!! Add in some scrambled egg (from the occasional cracked/pecked egg), or a sprinkle of seeds on top and I’ve sent them to chicken food heaven. I swear they loll around afterwards bc they are too full to move. Luckily, chickens are not prone to overeating. But, I don’t do this a lot, their normal feed is 20% protein all-flock pellets served in a 7lb hanging feeder.

 

[Perris]

The “better for you argument” is merely anecdotal.

No it isn't. Follow the link above to the scientific studies.

 

[Acre4Me]

No it isn't. Follow the link above to the scientific studies.

So, pretty much all of that was anecdotal. The Wordpress article was also anecdotal..based on the intro line regarding the person trying to play around with fermented feed bc they saw mention of it. There isn’t a date on that article, but all their sources cited were 2009 or earlier. So, either that word press article is 10 years old, or there isn’t enough merit to fermented feeds to do much further study. I’m not saying either way. However, I never said fermented feed was bad, nor did I say it was without value. I said info was anecdotal and the process was not something I was interested in pursuing. Keep feeding your fermented feed if that works in your process - but, don’t offer up anecdotal information to refute an accusation of anecdotal information.

 

[Perris]

You missed the science. The scientific studies are listed at the end of the Word press blog (which was written for lay folk like us):

Sources



1) Engberg, R., Hammershoj, M., Johansen, N., Abousekken, M., Steenfeldt, S., & Jensen, B. (2009). Fermented feed for laying hens: Effects on egg production, egg quality, plumage condition and composition and activity of the intestinal microflora. British Poultry Science. doi: 10.1080/00071660902736722

2) Heres, L., Engel, B., Van Knapen, F., Wagenaar, J., & Urlings, B. (2002). Effect of fermented feed on the susceptibility for Campylobacter jejuni colonisation in broiler chickens with and without concurrent inoculation of Salmonella enteritidis. International Journal of Food Microbiology, 87, 75-86.

3) Heres, L., Wagenaar, J. A., Van Knapen, F., & Urlings, B. (2003). Passage of Salmonella through the crop and gizzard of broiler chickens fed with fermented liquid feed. Avian Pathology, 32, 173-181.

4) Niba, A., Beal, J., Kudi, A., & Brooks, P. (2009). Bacterial fermentation in the gastrointestinal tract of non-ruminants: Influence of fermented feeds and fermentable carbohydrates. Tropical Animal Health and Production, 1393-1407. doi: 10.1007/s11250-009-9327-6

5) Yu, Z., Dong, B., & Lu, W. (2009). Dynamics of bacterial community in solid-state fermented feed revealed by 16S rRNA. The Society for Applied Microbiology: Letters in Applied Microbiology, 49, 166-172.

Other articles:

Chen, K., Kho, W., You, S., Yeh, R., Tang, S., & Hsieh, C. (2009). Effects of Bacillus subtilis var. natto and Saccharomyces cerevisiae mixed fermented feed on the enhanced growth performance of broilers. Poultry Science, 88, 309-315. http://ps.fass.org/content/88/2/309.full.pdf+html

Heres, L., Engle, B., Urlings, H., Wagenaar, J., & Van Knapen, F. (2004). Effect of acidified feed on the susceptibility of broiler chickens to intestinal infection by Campylobacter and Salmonella. Veterinary Medicine, 99, 259-267.

Heres, L., Urlings, H., Wagenaar, J., & de Jong, M. (2003). Transmission of Salmonella between broiler chickens fed with fermented liquid feed. Epidemiology and Infection, 132, 107-116. doi: 10.1017/S0950268803001213

 

[Acre4Me]

You missed the science. The scientific studies are listed at the end of the Word press blog (which was written for lay folk like us):

Sources



1) Engberg, R., Hammershoj, M., Johansen, N., Abousekken, M., Steenfeldt, S., & Jensen, B. (2009). Fermented feed for laying hens: Effects on egg production, egg quality, plumage condition and composition and activity of the intestinal microflora. British Poultry Science. doi: 10.1080/00071660902736722

2) Heres, L., Engel, B., Van Knapen, F., Wagenaar, J., & Urlings, B. (2002). Effect of fermented feed on the susceptibility for Campylobacter jejuni colonisation in broiler chickens with and without concurrent inoculation of Salmonella enteritidis. International Journal of Food Microbiology, 87, 75-86.

3) Heres, L., Wagenaar, J. A., Van Knapen, F., & Urlings, B. (2003). Passage of Salmonella through the crop and gizzard of broiler chickens fed with fermented liquid feed. Avian Pathology, 32, 173-181.

4) Niba, A., Beal, J., Kudi, A., & Brooks, P. (2009). Bacterial fermentation in the gastrointestinal tract of non-ruminants: Influence of fermented feeds and fermentable carbohydrates. Tropical Animal Health and Production, 1393-1407. doi: 10.1007/s11250-009-9327-6

5) Yu, Z., Dong, B., & Lu, W. (2009). Dynamics of bacterial community in solid-state fermented feed revealed by 16S rRNA. The Society for Applied Microbiology: Letters in Applied Microbiology, 49, 166-172.

Other articles:

Chen, K., Kho, W., You, S., Yeh, R., Tang, S., & Hsieh, C. (2009). Effects of Bacillus subtilis var. natto and Saccharomyces cerevisiae mixed fermented feed on the enhanced growth performance of broilers. Poultry Science, 88, 309-315. http://ps.fass.org/content/88/2/309.full.pdf+html

Heres, L., Engle, B., Urlings, H., Wagenaar, J., & Van Knapen, F. (2004). Effect of acidified feed on the susceptibility of broiler chickens to intestinal infection by Campylobacter and Salmonella. Veterinary Medicine, 99, 259-267.

Heres, L., Urlings, H., Wagenaar, J., & de Jong, M. (2003). Transmission of Salmonella between broiler chickens fed with fermented liquid feed. Epidemiology and Infection, 132, 107-116. doi: 10.1017/S0950268803001213

Yup. Got that. You missed my reference to those. They are old and few. Have you read them? Are you just assuming that because a scientific article was written it was all positive? Are you just taking a wordpress article written by someone who was messing around with fermented feed for a short time is the best resource here? Because it seems like it as you are relying on that one resource. Again, so far, all I’m getting is anecdotal info. However, I’m not saying it’s bad to feed fermented food. It is altered food with possible benefits. Also it is more involved than many are able or are interested in pursuing.

 

[Perris]

They are old and few.

age is completely irrelevant (and 10 years is a blink in the history of science); you need to cite scientific studies refuting them. At the moment all you are offering is your opinion.

 

[Acre4Me]

age is completely irrelevant (and 10 years is a blink in the history of science); you need to cite scientific studies refuting them. At the moment all you are offering is your opinion.

Yes, as stated, I offered my opinion. You unfortunately attack without merit, and seem to be rather personally insulted for some reason when facts are pointed out regarding your sources. You have not indicated you have read the studies and I doubt you have. 10 years can be very meaningful to scientific studies. The fact that there were studies and not any lately (according to your primary source, the Wordpress article) may be indicative that it isn’t a subject that merits further study bc results aren’t good enough or the method (fermenting feed) impactful enough to warrant further study, or that WP article is simply that old.

Come back after you have read the actual scientific articles, and determine what they found. Here’s a hint for you: you can usually find the abstract of a scientific publication fairly easily, however, the actual publication may be hard to access. The abstract will provide a very short summary of the key results. I’m trying to help you out as I doubt you have even looked up one of those articles to read with your own eyes, let alone the entire list of those cited articles.

No need to come back on full attack. Calm down, and do a little research with your own two eyeballs and grey matter perusing some scientific studies if you are that intent on trying to push FF as a proven method. Otherwise, one individual’ s experience with something is really just anecdotal. Doesn’t mean it is wrong or harmful, but anecdotal.

 

[Perris]

there is no point arguing with someone who can't or doesn't reason.

 

[Acre4Me]

there is no point arguing with someone who can't or doesn't reason.

Lol. That certainly does describe you, so thank you for ending the illogical discussion on your part. I agree that you are either unwilling or unable to reason on a subject you feel emotionally attached to.

Btw, you might actually want to read those scientific articles before arguing the merits of FF again.