Genetics of crossing Silver Penciled and Partridge Plymouth Rocks

[Turkeytom25]

Hi, my project that I am starting is going to involve crossing an existing show quality strain of Silver Penciled Rocks with Hatchery Partridge Rocks to hopefully bring up the quality of the Partridge. Does anyone have experience with the genetics envolved in this cross? What procedure should I follow? I am thinking of crossing a Partridge cock over a big Silver Penciled hen first because I have heard that hens have more influence on the type of the offspring, which is my first concern.
Thanks

 

[MysteryChicken]

Hi, my project that I am starting is going to involve crossing an existing show quality strain of Silver Penciled Rocks with Hatchery Partridge Rocks to hopefully bring up the quality of the Partridge. Does anyone have experience with the genetics envolved in this cross? What procedure should I follow? I am thinking of crossing a Partridge cock over a big Silver Penciled hen first because I have heard that hens have more influence on the type of the offspring, which is my first concern.
Thanks

If I remember correctly, the crossing of gold rooster over silver hen will produce sex linked chicks, with males being gold split to silver, & females being gold.

Male Offspring: S/s+

Female Offspring: s+/s+

 

[ColtHandorf]

@Egghead_Jr I believe has made this cross before.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Can you post photos of your Silver Penciled stock? I see you're in Penn. Are they Hortsman's birds?

The genetics involved may not be of concern. The biggest problem with Partridge is ensuring it has Mahogany MH/MH. Red enhancer to gold. Why I say it's probably not of concern is I've not seen hatchery partridge with it at all so you can't lose in a cross what the stock didn't have to begin with. Beyond the typical problems that can arise from an outcross you will have to back cross the F1 or F2 generation to a dark partridge to ensure they carry MH gene. Once it's lost there's no getting it back without outcross. It's very apparent if they don't have any MH.

Norm Ennis is back working his Partridge. He's located in Maryland. Currently he is down to last 4 or 5 hens open for sale this year. Being bottom of choice available I've not followed up on it. It's a heck of a drive from Vermont to Maryland for a few birds that are not "breeder" quality and no cockerels. This years birds you could pick up at Northeast Congress in January if you're lucky. It was cancelled 2021.What he brings for sale to shows goes quick! Got to get there before they open doors to public and walk into sales area. Or make arrangements and payment prior. I'm chomping at the bit to get more of his stock. Hard to obtain but worth the effort.

I mention Norm's birds as that would ultimately be the best option. I fought side sprigs for years after crossing two lines of birds. The things that can pop up if birds don't niche would make you cry. If they do niche consider yourself lucky. It's a gamble that will either pay off or lose you a few years in chasing it. Then you're back to square one looking for good quality Partridge.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

If you want some stock to work with I'd send you eggs if you paid shipping. Spilt G/S cock over Silver and one Partridge. He carries one copy of Mahogany making half the partridge offspring carry one.

 

[The Moonshiner]

@The Moonshiner can you help here?

 

[Painted Calls]

@The Moonshiner can you help here?

No.

 

[Turkeytom25]

Can you post photos of your Silver Penciled stock? I see you're in Penn. Are they Hortsman's birds?

The genetics involved may not be of concern. The biggest problem with Partridge is ensuring it has Mahogany MH/MH. Red enhancer to gold. Why I say it's probably not of concern is I've not seen hatchery partridge with it at all so you can't lose in a cross what the stock didn't have to begin with. Beyond the typical problems that can arise from an outcross you will have to back cross the F1 or F2 generation to a dark partridge to ensure they carry MH gene. Once it's lost there's no getting it back without outcross. It's very apparent if they don't have any MH.

Norm Ennis is back working his Partridge. He's located in Maryland. Currently he is down to last 4 or 5 hens open for sale this year. Being bottom of choice available I've not followed up on it. It's a heck of a drive from Vermont to Maryland for a few birds that are not "breeder" quality and no cockerels. This years birds you could pick up at Northeast Congress in January if you're lucky. It was cancelled 2021.What he brings for sale to shows goes quick! Got to get there before they open doors to public and walk into sales area. Or make arrangements and payment prior. I'm chomping at the bit to get more of his stock. Hard to obtain but worth the effort.

I mention Norm's birds as that would ultimately be the best option. I fought side sprigs for years after crossing two lines of birds. The things that can pop up if birds don't niche would make you cry. If they do niche consider yourself lucky. It's a gamble that will either pay off or lose you a few years in chasing it. Then you're back to square one looking for good quality Partridge.

My Silver penciled are just babies so pictures would be kind of useless. They are from Horstman stock. I talked to you recently about this partridge stuff and I am mostly just looking for the exact procedure to follow in this kind of cross. I might be interested in eggs from the pen you described but the post office has been alittle slow lately and I still have one more place to look in hopes of finding somebody that still has Horstman's old version of the partridge rocks. If I am unsucessful I would be quite pleased to ge some eggs from you at a reasonable price.

 

[Turkeytom25]

I have had Partridge Rocks from Murray Mcmurray and Meyer hatcheries and of the two I think Murray Mcmurray has the better birds in general. The hens were definetly darker mahogany than the ones from Meyer hatchery. I am not sure how to tell if they carry this mahogany gene you were talking about? I was also impressed with the quality of the spangling on the Silver Spangled Hamburgs that came from there.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

The mahogany is what keeps them red. If you're familiar with Blue Laced Red Wyandotte then you've seen the brassy and golden looking birds from hatcheries and you've seen some with the deep red that are breeder stock.

It's the same thing. What folks did immediately on the reintroduction to America of that variety is they started crossing with gold laced Wyandotte. Ultimately they lost the Mahogany gene. So in outcrossing silver to partridge the result will only carry one MH. Those birds you are keeping as Partridge should be backcrossed to a dark red (two copies of mahogany) partridge. In this way the resulting birds all carry a copy and half of them two. You wont lose it in future mattings. Never breed a partridge that is golden. It doesn't carry mahogany so would only further dilute it in your flock.