Gypsy's has anyone ever met a real one ??

[punk-a-doodle]

My limited, secondhand experiences in England were not positive. They included a stolen and later burned car, a farmer who had a chain cut off his fence and his field occupied and completely trashed, and a friend who had two beloved horses stolen (she found them but the law refused to help her). Travellers were the particular group, and I felt the way crime was being handled there forced the issue to become much more culturally charged than it needed to be. If you would normally penalize someone for damaging a person's property, but do not penalize a certain person because they belong to a certain group, then the issue is bound to be viewed in terms of that group rather than seen as individual actions. And it was.

 

[appps]

Afraid my only experience is watching that uk show my big fat gypsy wedding. I don't know if it was drummed up for the series but it was horrible. Males who ruled their wives who in turn had to give up work when they married to care for their men. Rape of single girls considered a right of passage for the young men. Truly horrific.

 

[cupman]

The gypsies here are looked down on. Maybe there's good gypsies but the bad ones tend to stand out. They seem to always be severely overweight and they have a thing about trying to buy your car from you. There's always a scam or a catch when dealing with them, I won't even listen to offers. They also have a tendency to go to restaurants, clear their plates and then complain about the food to get a reduced price or even free. It's like all they know how to do is scheme and exploit. It's too bad.

 

[KristyHall]

Well I don't know the exact political term for the ethnicity but that is how they refer to themselves as and that good enough for me, and of course this was in the very early 80's when folks weren't so caught up in political correctness, anyway the Caravans I was talking about are just really a whole group that travels together in different types of vehicles they live out of. They don't work or have any visible means of support hence all the traveling.

AL

Wanting to be respected is not PC. It irritates me that when someone wants to be recognized by the correct term and treated as human beings without being labeled by terms with negative connotations as PC.

 

[KristyHall]

So without reading everyone's responses, here are my thoughts.


OK so I am a free lance Researcher for a Human rights group that focuses on the continued persecution of the Roma people. I have had the pleasure of staying in a ROmani household and learn about her language and culture in exchange for me teaching her a bit about mine.

They are still one of the most persecuted ethnic groups in the world. There are people who call themselves gypsies and travel but are not of the Ethnic Roma people. They are often referred to by the Roma as "travelers" Travelers and the Roma are completely different groups. The travelers often give the ROma a bad name. Roma is a generalized term, like Native American covers the first nation tribes of the Americas but each tribe has it's own individual name, dialect, and traditions like Cherokee, Creek, Iroquois, etc. Travelers try to live like "gypsies" but are not in fact, Roma. Roma tend to be very insular and rarely date or marry outside of their own ethnic group. A lot of this has to do with centuries of persecution.

In many European countries, including first nations and democracies, the Roma are denied education, jobs, homes, and basic human rights. Very few travel anymore. Some only travel in short periods of times. Just how my family use to follow "the powwow trail" in the summer when I was a child. Stereotypes and persecution still haunt these people so badly, that few are allowed to live anywhere but in the worst slums with no access to medical care, electricity, running water, or education in most of Europe.

The Roma people are nothing like what you see on TV. Some more modernized Roma may behave that way, and the media has a way of finding the worst people of any group to parade around, but so do other ethnic groups. How many of you have seen a white christian raised teen behave like a spoiled loud obnoxious trashy brat? Do all whites, Americans or Christians behave in this way? No, of course not!

Do all Native peoples drink, speak in broken English, honor nature, or reject new traditions? Absolutely not. Stereotypes, negative or positive is harmful.

The Roma tend to be very conservative with strict rules on cleanliness, family structure, and respect. Hospitality and manners is a big deal among most Roma groups.

A quick history crash course. The original "gypsies" came from India. They gained many nick names as they began to travel around Eur-Asia. Gypsy came from the word Egyptian, because medieval people could not figure out where they were from and assumed they were from Egypt. Because they traveled they were held in suspicion by the clannish people of the dark ages and so when ever something went wrong they were often blamed for it.

Now because of mass genocide and persecution and continued prejudice that prevents them form getting work, education, and asylum, some Roma people have ha to turn to crime to survive. In some modern countries it is a crime to even be born a Roma! Imagine being born a race... illegally. They are still the easy scape goat. Because of this they are often denied asylum here in the US and in Canada despite the very legal genocide that is practiced throughout modern Europe.

The Roma I have been around as I worked on projects for these human rights groups have been nothing but intelligent and cordial people. I have shared meals and homes with them. I have traveled a little with one family, and I am heart broken at the continued vicious stereotypes that force modern Roma people, even the ones here in the US< to be demonized and abused. Because of shoes like "My big Fat gypsy..." I have received stories of students being bullied out of school, women attacked, people beaten, and asylum denied. People believe the bull they hear and see on TV or from hearsay, but few are willing to actually walk the "slums" and visit with supposedly dangerous groups who are simply desperate, suffering, and crushed under the thumb of generations of oppression and being denied the basics of education, nutrition, health care, and work.

If you wish to know more about the Roma people, there are two sources I trust wholly here in the US. One I have spent a good deal of time with and known for 12 years.

The first is [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Ian Hancock from the University of Texas. The second I need to get permission before I hand out the founder name and orginization information. Ian Hancock is a wellspring of information though. [/FONT]

Ok I am off my soap box now

 

[KristyHall]

OK after reading a lot of the posts I am glad I posted before I did.

I am appalled.

Seriously read up on the history of a group before saying anything.

It is like saying "oh it's ok to call black people the n word because my husband is a n word and he isn't offended by it" or " well all the Indians I was around drank and bang on a drum so you know, Indians are drunk and have lost their ways"

Remember while there are different people who are fine with certain things, do not assume all people are, especially when using dehuminizing termenology. Also understand that just because someone calls themselves gypsy does not mean they are from the traveling Roma ethnicity. It's like a hippy calling themselves running wolf and thinking he's a Native (I use native because it gets confusing when I am in a conversation with people from India, which is frequent these days. I personally could care less about being called Indian or mixed race, but don't call me a half breed. I'm not a dog, i'm a human being) because he had a dream once... or his great great grandfather was a real live Cherokee princess.

It is good identifying one's culture, or being proud of ancestry, but at least try to get it right, and do not assume that because that person plays into the stereotypes, that the stereotypes are the rule... or even normal.

 

[punk-a-doodle]

Kristy, I may have missed a post that says otherwise, but I am not sure the OP was referring to Roma or even Romani exclusively with their use of the word "gypsy". The term is a broad one and includes, as you mentioned, much wider groups and people doing card tricks at fairs who have nothing to do with any ethnic group. It actually sounds to me that they are referring to a group of people who traveled together and self-identified as "gypsies".

Travellers, for instance, sometimes denotes a particular group of Irish origin, although other unrelated people take on that name as well. They also commonly fall under the broad term of "gypsy". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller The particular group of people in my neck of he woods self-identified as "travellers" which is in itself a term that is somewhat broad and can be applied in ways that are not appreciated to groups who do not appreciate being called that.

I am glad you outlined what the term "Roma" refers to, as simply asking people to use the term "Roma" instead of "gypsy" tends to make people think that "Roma" is just the PC term for "gypsy", when in fact it is a very specific term that refers to only a very specific group of people. When that confusion occurs, then you just get people calling everyone from travellers to Hollywood gypsies "Roma", which just tends to upset the actual groups even more.

 

[KristyHall]

Kristy, I may have missed a post that says otherwise, but I am not sure the OP was referring to Roma or even Romani exclusively with their use of the word "gypsy". The term is a broad one and includes, as you mentioned, much wider groups and people doing card tricks at fairs who have nothing to do with any ethnic group. It actually sounds to me that they are referring to a group of people who traveled together and self-identified as "gypsies".

Travelers, for instance, sometimes denotes a particular group of Irish origin, although other unrelated people take on that name as well. They also commonly fall under the broad term of "gypsy". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller The particular group of people in my neck of he woods self-identified as "travelers" which is in itself a term that is somewhat broad and can be applied in ways that are not appreciated to groups who do not appreciate being called that.

I am glad you outlined what the term "Roma" refers to, as simply asking people to use the term "Roma" instead of "gypsy" tends to make people think that "Roma" is just the PC term for "gypsy", when in fact it is a very specific term that refers to only a very specific group of people. When that confusion occurs, then you just get people calling everyone from travelers to Hollywood gypsies "Roma", which just tends to upset the actual groups even more.

You're right, it is true some people are using the term broadly, and i should take that into consideration. Also you make a great point about the risk of over using "Roma" as well

Still when people think of "Gypsy" they likely think of a majority of the stereotypes that are either placed upon Roma, or came from actual Roma history. When you close your eyes and think of a "Gypsy" you likely think of the same characteristics. Esmeralda and Clopin from the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Traveling circus. Fortune Tellers. Belly Dancers. Magic Balls. Tied head scarves and big hoop earrings, Flowing multi colored skirts. Violins and other such stringed instruments. Magic potions and "witches".

Unfortunately the label being placed on any traveling group or group that practice what some may think are aspects of the original Gypsies (per the term labeled upon the nomadic ethnic group that spread out from India in the dark ages) .. the Roma, does lead to a lot of confusion. Meanwhile in Europe, the "gypsies" that are persecuted the most are those of the ethnic Roma people.

Some travel, some do not. Some by traditional wagon and horse, some by other means. All of the Roma i have met practice strict cleanliness traditions (something I had to get use to though they did not expect me to follow it strictly since i am not Romani, but I did my best to try and follow their traditions). The women tend to be very modest, and most (at least the ones I have met) are Christian.

Part of the great deal of misinformation comes from the fact that the very insular Roma have had a taboo on talking about their history and culture with anyone who is not Romani. Dr. Hancock, and this other person whom I have mentioned, are sometimes criticized for their decision to be completely open about their languages, cultures, and history. I use the plural form of languages and cultures because each group is very much unique. There is a move to make one language the official language of their people, but it is hotly debated. Not everyone criticizes Dr. Hancock as much because he is an elder, and like many cultures, the elders are highly respected.

Your comment about the Irish travelers does ring a bell. I heard a bit about them on NPR when talking about their music. Beautiful songs. But that is the extent of my knowledge of the Irish Travelers.

 

[KristyHall]

Entire communities of Roma were wiped out in WW2 by the Nazi's It is rarely spoken about because unlike with other groups like the Jewish people, the Roma are still universaly hated in much of Europe so no one minds sweeping things under the rug.

http://isurvived.org/RomaniLiquidation-Birkenau.html
Warning the link has graphic pictures of Roma victims of the concentration camps. No blood and no bodies, but the results of the survivors is still hard to look at.

A group of Roma children in Serbia

Romani (Gypsy) women and child. Romania, 1930s.

a touched up photo from a Romani art's group that shows the arrest of a Roma woman

Timea Junghaus, a Romni from Hungary

A group of Roma people marching in protest when Turkey tries to bulldoze one of the oldest Roma settlements in Europe, and the only homes many of these people have ever known, in the slums of Istanbul.


and a Link to a short story on issues Roma face.

Racism in the U.S. – From Judge Judy to Everyone Else

Blogian on 13 Nov 2007

A Romani woman from the Czech Republic. For her and the other 15 million members of world’s Roma community the term “gypsy” is like the term “n****r” for African-Americans.
I must confess that the only show I watch on American TV is Judge Judy. I must say she is very entertaining, but often racist too. Don’t get me wrong, that racism is not personal at all. Almost everyone else in the United States like Judge Judy uses the word “gypsy” to offend someone else.
I can’t recall the exact date and the case, but I have heard Judge Judy calling someone a “gypsy” as a derogatory term at least once this fall on My20 in Denver, Colorado.
Doing a Google search, I found another observation of Judge Judy’s usage of the g-word:

My name is Hilda and I’m from Australia. I admired Judge Judy and watched her show every day. Last week I got a shock of her comment. Judge Judy said to one of her client “she doesn’t look like a Gypsy thief does she?” I always thought Judge Judy was an inteligent women but how can a person with high inteligence make such an ignorant racist comment in national television?
I want a public apology from Judge Judy televised in national tv. about her racist comment of my race. I’m a Gypsy and I can assure Judge Judy I’m not a thief. I’m shure if she would of say “she doesn’t look like a Jewish thief or a ****** thief” she would lose her job over it.. but is it ok to say Gypsy Thief?I WANT JUSTICE AND I DON’T REST UNTIL JUSTICE DONE!​

Few people realize that “Gypsy” is actually reference to an ethnic group – just like Armenians, Russians, Germans. There are about 15 million “Gypsies” in the world who prefer to be called Romani.
Judge Judy and the rest of America should go and educate themselves before making derogatory comments against an entire people who have been marginalized throughout centuries and due to omnipresent racism often hide their identities.

 

[KristyHall]

Famous Romani

Charlie Chaplin (Yup THAT Charlie Chaplin). He was born on a traveling Caravan.

Elvis Presley (Yup That elvis) Who's family came over to the us in the 18th century. His ancestors were Sinti.

Rickie Lee Jones

Michael Caine

Mother Teresa (From an Albanian Roma family)

Django Reinhardt