halti and gentle leader dog harnesses

[redhen]

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LOL.. no flaming here..
But jeesh.. they're just tiny whimpy things...

 

[arabianequine]

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I knew a lady that did that to her cocker spaniel too...
(who in the he&& needs a choke on a cocker spaniel anyways??...

..)

The instructor requires the choker chain on every dog in the class....no matter breed or size. There is a little wiener/chihuahua mix in there and he has one.....another little fluffy dog also has one.

 

[arabianequine]

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Yeah, and flat collars are actually the worst for that sort of thing. At least with a chain, if you pop-and-release like you're supposed to, the dog basically gets a pop on the back of the neck. With a flat collar, all corrections are pretty much against the windpipe.

Me, if a dog doesn't charge, I like a prong. But sadly lots of dogs have learned to just throw themselves at the end of a leash and I've seen it happen (not often, but I've seen it) that when the dog makes the sudden, hard lunge, they get punctured. They sell little rubber tips to prevent that. But in that case I'd rather use a fur-saver type chain collar - the one with the long links.

And really, I'd rather see something gimmicky used if it's the difference between a dog keeping it's home and a trip to the pound. I've had owners (not dogs, but owners) who just would not follow through and finally I just told them to get one of these http://www.sporn.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=SPUS100
At least you can't hurt a dog with one and the dog gets to keep it's home.

But, as a dog trainer, may I beg people to PLEASE, if you're going to PAY YOUR GOOD MONEY to a trainer 1) See if their own dog is one you'd be happy to live with
2) Do what they say!!!
It is a source of endless frustration to me when people go out of their way, seek me out, offer me money to HELP them and then don't listen to anything I say, have a better idea, Uncle Tony never did it thatway, never follow through, etc.

I don't know what her dogs are like they are not brought to the class. This is the first time I meet her and worked with her. We are in the 3 rd week of class....we go one day a week. I can say she has some other dog brought in that his owner is a member of the akc kennel club for my area. The instructor is involved in that too and the dog she brings in is a corgi and he is so well trained and smart but not her dog. I see her take over peoples dogs in the class when the owners are not getting the results she thinks they should and they do better with her.

All that aside.....its not that I don't trust her. I am really thinking about getting one but never heard of them before and did not know if I wanted to spend the money on it and the instructor said I can use the halti in the class. However, she did not ever tell me that it would hurt her or make her freak out or any effects.....she did say it put pressure on her nose like a horse halter but not to the extent of some of the stories here....some of you have made it sound like as soon as you put it on they freak out. That would be a scene and I don't know if it is that necessary to do that to my puppy. She is just a little distracted in class from all the other dogs but she is a puppy though. She wants to play and she is incredibly lazy can be very hyper too but she is not allowed to be when in the class cause she can't cause she is on the leash so she will try to lay and roll around and whatever she can to push the limits!

 

[mekasmom]

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I knew a lady that did that to her cocker spaniel too...
(who in the he&& needs a choke on a cocker spaniel anyways??...

..)

The instructor requires the choker chain on every dog in the class....no matter breed or size. There is a little wiener/chihuahua mix in there and he has one.....another little fluffy dog also has one.

It doesn't matter what the instructor "requires". Lots of people "require" lots of things, but you don't have to comply. I was always taught that rules are made to be broken if you have a good cause.

I'm not saying that in chastisement at all, just to say that nothing about a dog collar is set in stone. People can make any rule they want to, but if it's not appropriate, you can ignore it, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. It's like the amusement park saying you cannot bring in a bottle of water or a public school teacher wanting kids to bring a certain brand of markers to school, or a vet telling you to bring in poop. None of those things are set in stone. Too many people get too intimidated by other people who make silly rules that really aren't even important. You can still correct a dog with a regular collar, you just lift it quickly for a millisecond then release. It doesn't have to be a choke collar to be a correction, nor does it have to be a rough jerk.

As far as the original topic, I have a prong collar too, but I find the gentle leader works better at correcting the pulling behavior in my st bernard. The GP don't pull at all, but will sit down and refuse to move when they are done walking. I don't have a good answer for that yet, other than bribing with food! LOL

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

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I knew a lady that did that to her cocker spaniel too...
(who in the he&& needs a choke on a cocker spaniel anyways??...

..)

LOL I have two recent cocker clients that needed severe PINCH collars. Both aggressive and both "not all there". I have a pic of them. Take a look at how blown their pupils are compared to the rest of the group....

The black cocker is one of only two clients of mine that had a re-bite after leaving my program... They were both small dogs, 25 pounds. Hard to control and very aggressive, both had people and dog aggression issues.

If you have to correct a dog to the point of collapsing the trechea then you need to re-evaluate what you are doing, NOT keep correcting the dog harder and harder.

 

[ScaredOfShadows]

Quote:
I knew a lady that did that to her cocker spaniel too...
(who in the he&& needs a choke on a cocker spaniel anyways??...

..)

The instructor requires the choker chain on every dog in the class....no matter breed or size. There is a little wiener/chihuahua mix in there and he has one.....another little fluffy dog also has one.

I'm like this if you don't believe in a choke collar - don't use it. Go to class without out - use a gentle leader or what not - if instructor says you have to use choker still - stop going.


I don't use choke collars - they can get hunt up and injure dogs. I use a 'no pull harness' on my psycho puller dog - works like a charm. Used a Halti thing - she went psychotic and would flop out roll over throw her paws over her head and try and kill herself to get it off after weeks of follow an friend who is a dog trainer's instructions to get her used to it - no way it was gonna work. SO on the harness which works beautifull with her pulling behavior.

When I was training my pit mix when she was young (now 10) I used a prong to stop her insistant behaviors and once she learned - she went to a regular buckled collar - when she's out tied however she wears a harness (when I'm not home and they can't be loose on the invisible fence or in the house) - as she is a major escape artist from collars either breaking them or slipping them. Really all she ever needed was the establishment of dominance and understanding treats for positive behavior and consequences for negative. negative was the prong collar when she pulled - and getting praised and going on longer walks when she walked beside me and ignored anything I didn't want her to ignore. I also used clicker training and toy training. Naomi I self trained to do about 30 commands verbally - all in english, 10 of those in german and about 15 in hand signals - she's a brilliant dog - and it was easy to train her - we do weekly training ever since she was a pup and she's 10 now. She

Each dog is different - you have to learn what works for them when training. Naomi works well with verbal praise, occassionally treats, and using a big stuffed toy as focus training on physical commands such as bite, hold, and release.

The other dog Gypsy - just does well with positive reinforcement with verbal and treats. She HATES time outs - she used to chase the chickens and ducks - after about 5 time outs by the tree and sitting there sulking she has stopped. She hated it, she still watches them and is interested but she won't chase them or even go within 10 feet of them. They go on her dog house and she just sits about 10 feet away and barks at them to get off.

 

[Akane]

ncidentally, I've also had the unique experience of working horses who's owner liked collars - big old cow collars up behind the ears - instead of halters. If you tried to make them do anything with the collar they didn't want, they'd stick their noses in the air and drag you off, even if you were at an angle that dragged on their windpipe and they were choking while they did it (just like dogs) When you put a halter on one they'd throw a little sulk or tantrum (just like dogs above) and then behave (just like dogs above)

Actually I quite like a lasso or something similar looped around the top of the neck when training 2-3year olds that have never been handled. Sometimes It works a lot better than a halter and then when you do put a halter on them you can slip the rope through the front halter ring to transition to it. You'll end up with a horse who bends very nicely at the poll and drops their head automatically. I've also led all my horses around by a loop around their neck even when they were quite insistent they wanted to go elsewhere. It's far from impossible to work a horse off just a collar. You do have to watch out when using something that tightens just like when using a choke collar on a dog.



Of course you can injure a dog with a halti or other head collar. You can injure a dog with a buckle collar. You can injure a dog with a prong. Not every dog stops dragging when put in a prong. Some horrible pullers will let off for a while and then go right back at it. In my experience though the least injury results from a head collar, then a prong, and then a choke. The head collar also seems the easiest for people to learn how to use properly and the choke the most difficult.​

 

[redhen]

Quote:
I knew a lady that did that to her cocker spaniel too...
(who in the he&& needs a choke on a cocker spaniel anyways??...

..)

The instructor requires the choker chain on every dog in the class....no matter breed or size. There is a little wiener/chihuahua mix in there and he has one.....another little fluffy dog also has one.

I wouldnt go to that trainer then...

 

[arabianequine]

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Actually I quite like a lasso or something similar looped around the top of the neck when training 2-3year olds that have never been handled. Sometimes It works a lot better than a halter and then when you do put a halter on them you can slip the rope through the front halter ring to transition to it. You'll end up with a horse who bends very nicely at the poll and drops their head automatically. I've also led all my horses around by a loop around their neck even when they were quite insistent they wanted to go elsewhere. It's far from impossible to work a horse off just a collar. You do have to watch out when using something that tightens just like when using a choke collar on a dog.



Of course you can injure a dog with a halti or other head collar. You can injure a dog with a buckle collar. You can injure a dog with a prong. Not every dog stops dragging when put in a prong. Some horrible pullers will let off for a while and then go right back at it. In my experience though the least injury results from a head collar, then a prong, and then a choke. The head collar also seems the easiest for people to learn how to use properly and the choke the most difficult.

Maybe that is why she says it might work better then....maybe its me.

The trainer recommended the halti for me and my dog and said I can use it in the class.

 

[RiverOtter]

Arabianequine, does the instructor have one to loan you? Ask, I'll bet she's got one you can use in class. I know I've bought equipment for a client to try out, I figure I'll need it myself eventually. Actually, come to think of it, I usually buy one to replace the last one I loaned out.
And not every dog freaks. Plenty of them don't, but for most they just have to get used to it.

Akane, I trained in the east, where there's not a lot of lasso use, but it seems to me it would work more like a choke then a flat collar. I was not impressed with the collar on these horses, this guy had 45 of the pushiest, in your space, in your face, I-don't-wanna-and-you-can't-make-me horses I'd met. There was some poor training all around, and (I'm sure you've met them) he was one of those who preferred not to employ people who'd worked with horses before, I was the exception because he REALLY needed someone who knew what they were doing.
Sadly, after I left there, a mare broke her windpipe against one of those collars and died.

I've actually seen far more windpipe injuries from the dog's end then from the owners. We've all seen the dog hit against the end of it's leash or tie-out hard enough to spin themselves and then do it again. I don't know why they do that, but they do. I can even understand the chain collars on little frou-frou dogs. I've worked a couple of little guys with pushed in faces (bostons, pekes and so on) who's owners were afraid to walk them because as soon as the leash was on they'd throw their heads down and do their best Iditarod Sled dog imitation and it was scary to hear them gasping and sucking for air. One would actually pass out on occasion. Whatever you can use to break that mindset before the dog kills itself.

LOL, and I'm with Jamie on the cockers! Back when I was grooming if someone brought in a cocker I'd bring out a muzzle. There was only *one* that didn't flip out or try to bite at some point