Having problem with late term embryo death

[jmc]

thanks. i don't know why i am continuing with this.................

but it seems like, as usually happens: if a huge amount of the eggs all start pipping and hatching right on the target date--EVEN EGGS THAT VARY IN WEIGHT/MOISTURE LOSS--that is a sign that the temperature and humidity have been about as good as one can get.

This is usually what happens with me. As said above: last weeks hatch--35 of 44 all hatched right on target date (one even hatched day 20) in lovely condition. Not sopping wet and sticky.
Some of these eggs had lost too much weight, some were right on target, some were a bit heavy.

NINE DID NOT HATCH AT ALL. Some were of perfect weight, some were too light, some were a bit heavy.

When you deal with a large no. of eggs how can one reasonably expect them--with all their differences in size, shell thickness, shell porosity, embryo vigor--to lose the exact same and perfectly accurate amount of moisture (13 % of original weight)? I do not think one can reasonably expect that.

Still I am a bit bummed to regularly have a few or more (nine this last time... was my new 'record'

) die very late.

IF THEY WERE ALL OR ALMOST ALL WERE DEAD AT THE END THEN MAYBE THAT WOULD BE AN INDICATOR OF HIGH HUMIDITY OR LOW TEMP......

But my hatches have been from 79.5% (my latest and worst) up to 100 %. I just get bugged by losing 4, 6, or 9 chicks right at the end..........

eta:
I wish I could post pictures, but since the new byc started, i am no longer able to get pictures to post......

 

[CSisley]

If you are sure that your temperature and humidity levels are right then I would start looking at the hens you are getting your eggs from. I think too much emphasis gets put on temperature and humidity because that's something we are much more capable of monitoring so we tend to stress over those details and ignore the others. I'm speaking to myself just as much as I'm speaking to you. It's much harder to pin down nutritional deficiencies but egg source is no less important than temperature and humidity control. You might consider giving your hens supplements or nutrient dense foods for awhile before collecting incubator eggs from them and see if your percentages don't improve. Here are some vitamin deficiencies that can cause late in shell death. Some of them will show other deformities besides death but some won't show any other symptoms except a dead chick. See Vitamin K and Folic Acid.

Vitamin K: No physical deformities from a simple deficiency, nor can they be provoked by antivitamins, but​

mortality occurs between 18 days and hatching, with variable hemorrhaging.

Thiamin: High embryonic mortality during emergence but no obvious symptoms other than polyneuritis in​

those that survive.

Riboflavin (Vitamin B2): Mortality peaks at 60 hours, 14 days, and 20 days of incubation, with peaks prominent early as
deficiency becomes severe. Altered limb and mandible development, dwarfism and clubbing of​

down are defects expressed by embryo.

Biotin: High death rate at 19 days to 21 days of incubation, parrot beak, chondrodystrophy, several​

skeletal deformities and webbing between the toes. Perosis.

Pantothenic acid Deaths appear around 14 days of incubation, although marginal levels may delay problems until​

emergence. Variable subcutaneous hemorrhaging and edema; wirey down in poults.

Folic acid: Mortality at about 20 days of incubation. The dead generally appear normal, but many have
bent tibiotarsus, syndactyly and mandible malformations. In poults, mortality at 26 days to 28​

days of incubation with abnormalities of extremities and circulatory system.

Vitamin B12: Mortality at about 20 days of incubation, with atrophy of legs, edema, hemorrhaging, fatty​

organs, and head between thighs malposition.

Manganese: Deaths peak prior to emergence. Chondrodystrophy, dwarfism, long bone shortening, head​

malformations, edema, and abnormal feathering are prominent. Perosis.

Zinc: Deaths prior to emergence, and the appearance of rumplessness, depletion of vertebral column,​

eyes underdeveloped and limbs missing.

 

[jmc]

If you are sure that your temperature and humidity levels are right well, at least it seems that they are pretty good, given what i may have stated awkwardly in my most recent post.... then I would start looking at the hens you are getting your eggs from. I think too much emphasis gets put on temperature and humidity because that's something we are much more capable of monitoring so we tend to stress over those details and ignore the others. thank you. i would tend to agree! I'm speaking to myself just as much as I'm speaking to you. It's much harder to pin down nutritional deficiencies but egg source is no less important than temperature and humidity control. You might consider giving your hens supplements or nutrient dense foods for awhile before collecting incubator eggs from them and see if your percentages don't improve. Here are some vitamin deficiencies that can cause late in shell death. Some of them will show other deformities besides death but some won't show any other symptoms except a dead chick. See Vitamin K and Folic Acid.

Vitamin K: No physical deformities from a simple deficiency, nor can they be provoked by antivitamins, but​

mortality occurs between 18 days and hatching, with variable hemorrhaging.

Thiamin: High embryonic mortality during emergence but no obvious symptoms other than polyneuritis in​

those that survive.

Riboflavin (Vitamin B2): Mortality peaks at 60 hours, 14 days, and 20 days of incubation, with peaks prominent early as
deficiency becomes severe. Altered limb and mandible development, dwarfism and clubbing of​

down are defects expressed by embryo.

Biotin: High death rate at 19 days to 21 days of incubation, parrot beak, chondrodystrophy, several​

skeletal deformities and webbing between the toes. Perosis.

Pantothenic acid Deaths appear around 14 days of incubation, although marginal levels may delay problems until​

emergence. Variable subcutaneous hemorrhaging and edema; wirey down in poults.

Folic acid: Mortality at about 20 days of incubation. The dead generally appear normal, but many have
bent tibiotarsus, syndactyly and mandible malformations. In poults, mortality at 26 days to 28​

days of incubation with abnormalities of extremities and circulatory system.

Vitamin B12: Mortality at about 20 days of incubation, with atrophy of legs, edema, hemorrhaging, fatty​

organs, and head between thighs malposition.

Manganese: Deaths peak prior to emergence. Chondrodystrophy, dwarfism, long bone shortening, head​

malformations, edema, and abnormal feathering are prominent. Perosis.

Zinc: Deaths prior to emergence, and the appearance of rumplessness, depletion of vertebral column,​

eyes underdeveloped and limbs missing.

 

[TarheelBirdy]

So overwhelming, huh? I have been using a crappy Little Giant as backup when I ran out of room in my good incubator. I got terrible hatch rates from two hatches of pheasant out of it...the chicks were lost late in the incubation process. I was running the LG with both plugs in so that the temp and humidity would stay consistent. So I removed the plugs, concerned about the ventilation issue. My hatch was better with this last hatch, since I did that. I figure, check off one of the variables....it may have played a part.

 

[jmc]

thanks, tarheel............

 

[kukupecpec]

Sign: Not pipped. Full-term embryo, large yolk sac; yolk sac may not be fully enclosed by abdominal wall, may have residual albumen. Causes:

1. Inadequate turning, resulting in decreased embryonic membrane development and nutrient absorption.
2. Humidity too high during incubation or after transfer.
3. Incubator temperature too low.
4. Hatcher temperature too high.
5. Eggs chilled (e.g., at transfer).
6. Nutritional deficiencies.
7. Heredity.
8. Embryological development accident.
9. Breeder diseases.
10. Inadequate ventilation.
11. Prolonged egg storage.

got this off this website, a lot of reasons, but maybe you could narrow it down based on your incubation methods, etc.

http://www.natureform.com/kb/index.php?article=1011

I read your post andw as wondering if "chilled" means in transit?
I had a shipment of 9 eggs that I know got pretty cold - 6 of them were "weeping" after 24 hours in the bator. I kept the three that showed no signs of weeping, and 4 that had minimal weeping and incubated them to 24 days just in case. I had 1 hatch naturally - I didn't think to keep track of which ones were weeping, when I checked a week into incubation all the little yellow weeps were gone... Then had one pip internally but after 12 hours not break the shell so I opened him up and he was a cross break (is that genetic or just bad egg development) and when I opened the others I had 3 that were fully developed but dead - two had not full absorbed the yolk - and the other 2 never developed. I'm sure the cold wasn't a good thing, but had super consistent temps and humidity, only increasing on lockdown. Could freezing in transit be the sole reason for this?

 

[ozexpat]

thanks. i don't know why i am continuing with this.................

but it seems like, as usually happens: if a huge amount of the eggs all start pipping and hatching right on the target date--EVEN EGGS THAT VARY IN WEIGHT/MOISTURE LOSS--that is a sign that the temperature and humidity have been about as good as one can get.

This is usually what happens with me. As said above: last weeks hatch--35 of 44 all hatched right on target date (one even hatched day 20) in lovely condition. Not sopping wet and sticky.
Some of these eggs had lost too much weight, some were right on target, some were a bit heavy.

NINE DID NOT HATCH AT ALL. Some were of perfect weight, some were too light, some were a bit heavy.

When you deal with a large no. of eggs how can one reasonably expect them--with all their differences in size, shell thickness, shell porosity, embryo vigor--to lose the exact same and perfectly accurate amount of moisture (13 % of original weight)? I do not think one can reasonably expect that.

Still I am a bit bummed to regularly have a few or more (nine this last time... was my new 'record'

) die very late.

IF THEY WERE ALL OR ALMOST ALL WERE DEAD AT THE END THEN MAYBE THAT WOULD BE AN INDICATOR OF HIGH HUMIDITY OR LOW TEMP......

But my hatches have been from 79.5% (my latest and worst) up to 100 %. I just get bugged by losing 4, 6, or 9 chicks right at the end..........

eta:
I wish I could post pictures, but since the new byc started, i am no longer able to get pictures to post......

try a hatch without changing bators