Help. What happened?? OEGB eggs

[BantamTurkey]

I know it could be ANYTHING but I want to know if any one has seen this??
I have a hovabator styrofoam incubator but have hatched multiple times before with it. These are OEGB eggs. I had three hatch and one that died before it fully hatched. These are my hens' first eggs but I feel it was either me or the incubator. I just don't understand. All were fertile I candled them at a week and all were alive but one. 1/15 isn't bad, but then they didn't hatch!! I have 3/14, but I'm not sure one of them is going to make it

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Pullet eggs aren't the best choice for incubation for many reasons.
Also, don't overlook breeder nutrition when they fail late.

 

[BantamTurkey]

Pullet eggs aren't the best choice for incubation for many reasons.
Also, don't overlook breeder nutrition when they fail late.

My breeding trio is very healthy, just young. I was thinking maybe an infection. I appreciate all input. Why do you say pullet eggs aren't the best choice?? Jw. Because of the immaturity?? And what nutritional values do you recommend for breeders??

 

[microchick]

Thanks for posting the pictures @BantamTurkey. Two of mine looked like late fails, day 18 or so. Curious about the nutrition of the breeders being mentioned by ChickenCanoe. My Oegb eggs were given to me by an Amish neighbor. I know he free ranges his birds but they look plump and healthy. I suspected that my problems were caused by an inexperienced broody. I have no idea what the age of his breeders are. I think in typical Amish fashion, his hens go broody, his son shoves eggs under them and in 19-21 days they get more chicks. Not too much science involved. I plan to get some more eggs this spring from him and try again, this time putting a batch in the Brinsea mini eco my husband got me for Christmas and if my experienced Broody goes broody this spring, give her a batch to raise. There is a breeder in Macon which is about 25 miles from us and I may get eggs from her just to compare.

In the meantime, I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge here on BYC.

 

[RickyWashburn]

I've had a very similar problem but my chicks are alive in the shell right up until time to hatch. I'm thinking the egg shells may be to thick or strong for the chick to break.

 

[BantamTurkey]

Thanks for posting the pictures @BantamTurkey.  Two of mine looked like late fails, day 18 or so. Curious about the nutrition of the breeders being mentioned by ChickenCanoe. My Oegb eggs were given to me by an Amish neighbor. I know he free ranges his birds but they look plump and healthy. I suspected that my problems were caused by an inexperienced broody. I have no idea what the age of his breeders are. I think in typical Amish fashion, his hens go broody, his son shoves eggs under them and in 19-21 days they get more chicks. Not too much science involved. I plan to get some more eggs this spring from him and try again, this time putting a batch in the Brinsea mini eco my husband got me for Christmas and if my experienced Broody goes broody this spring, give her a batch to raise. There is a breeder in Macon which is about 25 miles from us and I may get eggs from her just to compare.

In the meantime, I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge here on BYC.

I'm SO glad I found this site!!

I've had a very similar problem but my chicks are alive in the shell right up until time to hatch. I'm thinking the egg shells may be to thick or strong for the chick to break.

They were VERY tough shells. It took more than I thought it would be to get to the chicks. Most of them looked pretty well developed. One must've died early on, bc it was kinda gross, but the others looked even more developed in person than in the pictures

 

[ChickenCanoe]

My breeding trio is very healthy, just young. I was thinking maybe an infection. I appreciate all input. Why do you say pullet eggs aren't the best choice?? Jw. Because of the immaturity?? And what nutritional values do you recommend for breeders??

The biggest problem is the size of the egg but there are other reasons. I posted this a year or so ago on another hatching thread about pullet eggs.

"Here's all I know on the subject of incubating pullet eggs.
It is true that many people hatch from pullet eggs all the time with no problems.
It's also true that the smaller chicks from small pullet eggs will usually catch up in size by a year or so but heavier eggs produce heavier chicks.
So what are reasons not to do it?
A chicken deposits about 2 grams of calcium in an egg - regardless of age. So because of size, a pullet egg shell will be thicker than one from a mature hen and possibly more difficult to escape from.
There is clearly less albumen and a smaller yolk. That means less nutrition. Mammal babies can get all the nutrition they need from the mother and the abdomen can grow to accommodate. Once an egg is laid, that's all the nutrition and space there will ever be.
I've had old timers tell me that continuing to hatch from pullet eggs will decrease egg sizes in subsequent generations.
On the other hand, albumen quality is better with young birds than older hens.
IMHO it depends upon how big the egg is supposed to be, based on the breed. Eggs from the breed I raise are supposed to be 65 grams or larger. I've always tried to set eggs that were 55 grams or larger.
Then I had a predator massacre and only 3 mature hens survived. The pullets had just started laying eggs so I decided to set every egg I could get reducing my low weight limit to 45 grams. Now that those birds have matured (they're almost a year old), I see the results. Unlike past generations that started laying larger eggs by about 8 or 9 months of age, the eggs are still in the small/medium/large range rather than the XL and jumbo they should be by now.
That probably wouldn't matter to most backyard chicken people or even noticeable to those with multiple breeds. But since I've eliminated all other breeds, it's very noticeable to me. And since I'm breeding to a standard, egg and bird size is an important part of that standard."

Here's some scientific study on the topic of pullet eggs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15869849

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-635X2005000200002

http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/54/4/959.abstract

Additionally, young males may not have developed sufficient fertility.
If feeding layer feed to the whole flock, the excess calcium can affect sperm motility.

You can give a vitamin/mineral supplement in the water about once a week (too much of a good thing - is a bad thing)
Some animal protein regularly will enhance essential amino acids that are deficient in vegetable based feeds.

Thanks for posting the pictures @BantamTurkey. Two of mine looked like late fails, day 18 or so. Curious about the nutrition of the breeders being mentioned by ChickenCanoe. My Oegb eggs were given to me by an Amish neighbor. I know he free ranges his birds but they look plump and healthy. I suspected that my problems were caused by an inexperienced broody. I have no idea what the age of his breeders are. I think in typical Amish fashion, his hens go broody, his son shoves eggs under them and in 19-21 days they get more chicks. Not too much science involved. I plan to get some more eggs this spring from him and try again, this time putting a batch in the Brinsea mini eco my husband got me for Christmas and if my experienced Broody goes broody this spring, give her a batch to raise. There is a breeder in Macon which is about 25 miles from us and I may get eggs from her just to compare.

In the meantime, I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge here on BYC.

As for the topic of nutrition. Layer feed contains sufficient nutrition for body maintenance and egg laying. However, that may not be sufficient nutrition deposited in the egg to make vigorous embryos that hatch easily and are healthy from the start.
Some companies sell breeder rations that have vitamin, mineral and essential amino acids boosted.

I don't recall but I think the following list of nutrient deficiencies came from the University of Florida.

Nutritional Deficiencies and Toxicities; Almost Always a Breeder Flock Problem

1. Vitamin A: Circulatory system development abnormal; skeletal abnormalities, especially in the skull and spinal column; degenerative changes in the brain, spinal cord, and nerves; embryonic mortality is early (during days 2 to 3). Chicks hatching may have watery discharge from eyes or have eyelids stuck together. A great excess of vitamin A also will cause skeletal abnormalities.
2. Vitamin D3: Late embryonic mortality (>17 days); stunting; poor skeletal growth; rickets.
3. Vitamin E: Circulatory system problems, exudative diathesis, hemorrhages, stunting, encephalomalacia, eye abnormalities (e.g., cloudy lens or hemorrhages), edema of neck and feet; embryonic mortality peaks during days 2 to 5. Muscular weakness after hatching.
4. Vitamin K: Hemorrhages in embryo and membranes, especially at or near time of hatching.
5. Thiamin: Polyneuritis; early mortality peak and late peak =>19 days; many dead chicks in hatching trays.
6. Riboflavin: Stunting, short legs, disorganization of the circulatory system, edema, clubbed down, curled toes, micromelia, anemia, brown or dark green liver; mortality peaks during days 3 to 5, 10 to 15, and 21 to 22. Mortality peaks change from late to early as breeder depletion of riboflavin proceeds.
7. Niacin: Hypoplasia (decreased growth and development) of skeletal muscles, edema, short upper beak, nervous and vascular system abnormalities. Mortality peaks during days 8 to 14.
8. Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine): Inhibition of early embryonic growth; mortality peaks during days 8 to 14.
9. Pantothenic acid: Subcutaneous hemorrhages, edema, hydrocephalus, poor feathering, twisted legs, fatty livers, opacities of the eye, pale, dilated hearts; embryonic mortality peaks during days 2 to 4 and 11 to 15.
10. Biotin: Chondrodystrophy and micromelia (deformed skeleton, shortened long bones, parrot beak), syndactylism (webbing between toes); hemorrhages in the embryo and chorioallantois; peak embryonic mortality during days 3 to 4 and =>17. The early mortality peak is greatest with severe deficiency, while the late peak is greatest with mild deficiency.
11. Folic acid: Bent tibia, syndactylism (toe webbing), flattened head, small eyes, exposed viscera, parrot beak, other beak defects, stunting; peak embryonic mortality days >17.
12. Vitamin B12: Edema (especially around eyes), hemorrhages, curled toes, short beak, poor leg muscle development, dwarfing, fatty liver, enlarged thyroid, dilated, irregularly shaped heart, head-between-thighs malposition; peak embryonic mortality during days 8 to 14 (small peak) and 16 to 18.
13. Manganese: Chondrodystrophy, deformed skeleton, shortened long bones, parrot beak, micromelia, edema, abnormal down feathers; peak embryonic mortality days >18. Chicks uncoordinated.
14. Zinc: Skeletal defects, especially in posterior vertebral column (most common defect is rumplessness), small eyes, exposed viscera, beak and head abnormalities, edema. Chicks are weak; will not stand, eat, or drink. Embryonic mortality can be very high.
15. Calcium: Effects more indirect through poor shell quality, increased egg weight loss, and increased contamination. Stunted growth, decreased bone development, and increased mortality tend to occur in later stages. A great excess of calcium also will cause embryonic abnormalities.
16. Magnesium: Nervous tremor, gasping, and convulsions at hatching.
17. Phosphorus: Abnormal bone formation, stunting; mortality peaks during days 14 to 16.
18. Copper: Blood and circulatory system defects. Mortality peaks during days <3.
19. Iodine: Affects thyroid activity. Deficiency or excess causes increased incubation time, decreased growth, and increased mortality. Thyroid may be enlarged.
20. Selenium: Exudative diathesis; selenium will spare vitamin E. Very high levels of selenium are toxic: edema of head and neck, twisted legs, necrosis in brain and spinal cord, short upper beak, missing eyes, protruding eyes, an increase in malpositions.
21. Molybdenum: >17 ppm in the egg results in 100% mortality by day 12.
22. Lithium: Excess causes high embryonic mortality associated with inhibited development, eye defects, enlarged aorta, abnormal neural tube.
23. Boron: Excess boron in egg (44 ppm) causes embryonic mortality in early development and at day 13. Abnormalities similar to those of riboflavin deficiency. Face, beak, and appendicular skeleton abnormalities.
24. Protein, amino acids: Deficiency, excess, or imbalance of some amino acids can cause embryonic abnormalities and mortality. Abnormalities include small or abnormal upper and/or lower beak, disorganized protrusions in the brain, exposed viscera, twisted and shortened limbs, twisted spine, short body, degeneration of the eye.
25. Fat, fatty acids: Linoleic acid deficiency: slow development, 75% of embryos in the head-over-right-wing malposition; mortality peaks during days 1 to 4, 8 to 14, and >21. Lipid transfer from the yolk to the embryo is reduced in the first few eggs produced by young pullets; this appears to result in increased embryonic mortality.

I've had a very similar problem but my chicks are alive in the shell right up until time to hatch. I'm thinking the egg shells may be to thick or strong for the chick to break.

That could be it but a healthy chick should still be able to break through.


https://poultrykeeper.com/general-chickens/breeding-chickens/

 

[DwayneNLiz]

The biggest problem is the size of the egg but there are other reasons. I posted this a year or so ago on another hatching thread about pullet eggs.

"Here's all I know on the subject of incubating pullet eggs.
It is true that many people hatch from pullet eggs all the time with no problems.
It's also true that the smaller chicks from small pullet eggs will usually catch up in size by a year or so but heavier eggs produce heavier chicks.
So what are reasons not to do it?
A chicken deposits about 2 grams of calcium in an egg - regardless of age. So because of size, a pullet egg shell will be thicker than one from a mature hen and possibly more difficult to escape from.
There is clearly less albumen and a smaller yolk. That means less nutrition. Mammal babies can get all the nutrition they need from the mother and the abdomen can grow to accommodate. Once an egg is laid, that's all the nutrition and space there will ever be.
I've had old timers tell me that continuing to hatch from pullet eggs will decrease egg sizes in subsequent generations.
On the other hand, albumen quality is better with young birds than older hens.
IMHO it depends upon how big the egg is supposed to be, based on the breed. Eggs from the breed I raise are supposed to be 65 grams or larger. I've always tried to set eggs that were 55 grams or larger.
Then I had a predator massacre and only 3 mature hens survived. The pullets had just started laying eggs so I decided to set every egg I could get reducing my low weight limit to 45 grams. Now that those birds have matured (they're almost a year old), I see the results. Unlike past generations that started laying larger eggs by about 8 or 9 months of age, the eggs are still in the small/medium/large range rather than the XL and jumbo they should be by now.
That probably wouldn't matter to most backyard chicken people or even noticeable to those with multiple breeds. But since I've eliminated all other breeds, it's very noticeable to me. And since I'm breeding to a standard, egg and bird size is an important part of that standard."

Here's some scientific study on the topic of pullet eggs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15869849

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-635X2005000200002

http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/54/4/959.abstract

Additionally, young males may not have developed sufficient fertility.
If feeding layer feed to the whole flock, the excess calcium can affect sperm motility.

You can give a vitamin/mineral supplement in the water about once a week (too much of a good thing - is a bad thing)
Some animal protein regularly will enhance essential amino acids that are deficient in vegetable based feeds.

As for the topic of nutrition. Layer feed contains sufficient nutrition for body maintenance and egg laying. However, that may not be sufficient nutrition deposited in the egg to make vigorous embryos that hatch easily and are healthy from the start.
Some companies sell breeder rations that have vitamin, mineral and essential amino acids boosted.

I don't recall but I think the following list of nutrient deficiencies came from the University of Florida.

Nutritional Deficiencies and Toxicities; Almost Always a Breeder Flock Problem

1. Vitamin A: Circulatory system development abnormal; skeletal abnormalities, especially in the skull and spinal column; degenerative changes in the brain, spinal cord, and nerves; embryonic mortality is early (during days 2 to 3). Chicks hatching may have watery discharge from eyes or have eyelids stuck together. A great excess of vitamin A also will cause skeletal abnormalities.
2. Vitamin D3: Late embryonic mortality (>17 days); stunting; poor skeletal growth; rickets.
3. Vitamin E: Circulatory system problems, exudative diathesis, hemorrhages, stunting, encephalomalacia, eye abnormalities (e.g., cloudy lens or hemorrhages), edema of neck and feet; embryonic mortality peaks during days 2 to 5. Muscular weakness after hatching.
4. Vitamin K: Hemorrhages in embryo and membranes, especially at or near time of hatching.
5. Thiamin: Polyneuritis; early mortality peak and late peak =>19 days; many dead chicks in hatching trays.
6. Riboflavin: Stunting, short legs, disorganization of the circulatory system, edema, clubbed down, curled toes, micromelia, anemia, brown or dark green liver; mortality peaks during days 3 to 5, 10 to 15, and 21 to 22. Mortality peaks change from late to early as breeder depletion of riboflavin proceeds.
7. Niacin: Hypoplasia (decreased growth and development) of skeletal muscles, edema, short upper beak, nervous and vascular system abnormalities. Mortality peaks during days 8 to 14.
8. Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine): Inhibition of early embryonic growth; mortality peaks during days 8 to 14.
9. Pantothenic acid: Subcutaneous hemorrhages, edema, hydrocephalus, poor feathering, twisted legs, fatty livers, opacities of the eye, pale, dilated hearts; embryonic mortality peaks during days 2 to 4 and 11 to 15.
10. Biotin: Chondrodystrophy and micromelia (deformed skeleton, shortened long bones, parrot beak), syndactylism (webbing between toes); hemorrhages in the embryo and chorioallantois; peak embryonic mortality during days 3 to 4 and =>17. The early mortality peak is greatest with severe deficiency, while the late peak is greatest with mild deficiency.
11. Folic acid: Bent tibia, syndactylism (toe webbing), flattened head, small eyes, exposed viscera, parrot beak, other beak defects, stunting; peak embryonic mortality days >17.
12. Vitamin B12: Edema (especially around eyes), hemorrhages, curled toes, short beak, poor leg muscle development, dwarfing, fatty liver, enlarged thyroid, dilated, irregularly shaped heart, head-between-thighs malposition; peak embryonic mortality during days 8 to 14 (small peak) and 16 to 18.
13. Manganese: Chondrodystrophy, deformed skeleton, shortened long bones, parrot beak, micromelia, edema, abnormal down feathers; peak embryonic mortality days >18. Chicks uncoordinated.
14. Zinc: Skeletal defects, especially in posterior vertebral column (most common defect is rumplessness), small eyes, exposed viscera, beak and head abnormalities, edema. Chicks are weak; will not stand, eat, or drink. Embryonic mortality can be very high.
15. Calcium: Effects more indirect through poor shell quality, increased egg weight loss, and increased contamination. Stunted growth, decreased bone development, and increased mortality tend to occur in later stages. A great excess of calcium also will cause embryonic abnormalities.
16. Magnesium: Nervous tremor, gasping, and convulsions at hatching.
17. Phosphorus: Abnormal bone formation, stunting; mortality peaks during days 14 to 16.
18. Copper: Blood and circulatory system defects. Mortality peaks during days <3.
19. Iodine: Affects thyroid activity. Deficiency or excess causes increased incubation time, decreased growth, and increased mortality. Thyroid may be enlarged.
20. Selenium: Exudative diathesis; selenium will spare vitamin E. Very high levels of selenium are toxic: edema of head and neck, twisted legs, necrosis in brain and spinal cord, short upper beak, missing eyes, protruding eyes, an increase in malpositions.
21. Molybdenum: >17 ppm in the egg results in 100% mortality by day 12.
22. Lithium: Excess causes high embryonic mortality associated with inhibited development, eye defects, enlarged aorta, abnormal neural tube.
23. Boron: Excess boron in egg (44 ppm) causes embryonic mortality in early development and at day 13. Abnormalities similar to those of riboflavin deficiency. Face, beak, and appendicular skeleton abnormalities.
24. Protein, amino acids: Deficiency, excess, or imbalance of some amino acids can cause embryonic abnormalities and mortality. Abnormalities include small or abnormal upper and/or lower beak, disorganized protrusions in the brain, exposed viscera, twisted and shortened limbs, twisted spine, short body, degeneration of the eye.
25. Fat, fatty acids: Linoleic acid deficiency: slow development, 75% of embryos in the head-over-right-wing malposition; mortality peaks during days 1 to 4, 8 to 14, and >21. Lipid transfer from the yolk to the embryo is reduced in the first few eggs produced by young pullets; this appears to result in increased embryonic mortality.

That could be it but a healthy chick should still be able to break through.


https://poultrykeeper.com/general-chickens/breeding-chickens/

as always

 

[microchick]

Agreed, great post, @ChickenCanoe Informative as always.

I have a feeling with my chick death that the fault did lay at the broody's feet. The Amish neighbor's young early teen aged son manages his poultry and he had two hens sitting when he gave me my eggs. He had a 100% hatch rate on one hen sitting on a dozen eggs and the other hatched 10 out of 12. I would love to get those percentage rates with my hens and hope that as they mature they will get better at it.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I usually break a first time broody because they aren't always committed. But experienced birds always have excellent results.