Help with Lethargic Pullet

[viragovirgo]

Ok, there is a little improvement. She is at least able to find her food now so maybe her vision is improving?? I loaded it up with vit E and B, and gave her water with vitamins and electrolytes. She still isn't looking me if I act like I'm giving her something (whereas before she would give me the one eye look and come take it from my hand). Any other ideas?

 

[threehorses]

You didn't cause a problem with the acv, but it's probably that with her light weight and the panting/heat she needed more both in the way of electrolytes, and the nutrients. I suspect more that she might have been weak - but vision changes aren't yet ruled out so let's hope it's not that.

I understand that Buckeyes need more protein than other birds. Also she's a combo-purpose bird (meat and laying, not a broiler) and she's coming into laying age but isn't there yet. Correct? Would you say that her comb is still pale, tight, small, and dry? Not reddening, getting waxier and larger? If so, I would actually switch them to a feed more designed for developing birds for laying, not for slaughter (which is what broiler feed does). However I understand that Buckeyes are a breed that requires a little more protein so for her if you want to go that route, I'd use a gamebird grower formula. I know the last recommendation sounds odd but it's a higher protein and still aimed not for birds for short-lives, but longer lives as it's also for breeders. But I'm not sure I'd use broiler developer. Just my opinion.

When their combs start to enlarge, redden, and get waxier, that's when you'll start integrating laying crumbles into their mix as well as offering oyster shell, free choice, for those hens whose needs exceed the usual 6:1 cal/phos ratio of laying feeds. I like to give yogurt daily when I see the comb changes to help with a little extra calcium, protein (slight amount), and D3 as well as boost their gut for a period of stress. I find that doing this makes the first laying days problem-free mostly. Certainly not egg shell issues.

On her, I like the recommendations of all the others, too. Yogurt for gut bacteria in case there's something brewing and, if there's not, to improve her overall vigor and food efficiency. All the gals can have this. Personally because you describe them as being on dirt, and now free ranging, I would worm with Wazine. You can actually save the ivermectin if you still have that and follow up the wazine worming in 2-4 weeks with a BB-sized portion of ivermectin in the beak. We've had a few readers use this dosage, and the paste serves to slow the ivermectin down as it moves through the system making it a little more effective than the injectable used orally.

Then worm at least twice a year with the ivermectin. If you want, you can try more natural methods inbetween the twice-annual worming such as Cayenne, DE (food grade only), VermX, etc. I haven't before, but I'm about to try the cayenne personally. Then you just worm twice a year, or any time your gals get lighter than you like.

On the wazine, It really is easier to use the 17% piperazine for swine/cattle (liquid) if you can get it and return the dog/cat ... but in a pinch. I'm really unsure of the dosage conversion using dog/cat.. But we can try if you wish us to.

Keep her on the vitamins/electrolytes in the water for at least four days, and honestly I'd do it through til four days after worming to let her get caught up on nutrients.

I like your mash idea - try throwing a boiled egg in there was well as yogurt. That should be a nice power-snack for her to keep her energy up.

If you're concerned about her vision, try this trick: use a light (flashlight pen light etc) and shine it into her eye. Her pupil should contract, dilating again when you remove the light source. The eye shouldn't be greyed over, and the pupil should be normal in shape and size as the other birds - not contracted, not misshapen.

Incidentally, cedar shavings are bad. Old cedar aged wood for coops are not unless the coop is very closed in. I'd also make sure they all have a lot of free-flowing air and shade. There are some awesome posts on this board for helping during the heat if you're interested in checking them out.

Personally I think she's a Buckeye that isn't utilizing her nutrition well for some reason - either breed, feed, or worms - and that tweaking the nutrition as above as well as a worming as she's free ranging now should help. I hope so. In the mean time, look for ANY small signs of changes or things you didn't think about. Sometimes the tiniest bits of information really solve the mystery. let us know if you think about anything new, etc. Also look back to when this started happening and any changes that happened within 2 weeks of that period.

And personally, I would switch from grass clippings to horse stall shavings. TSC apparently has great small ones that are super dry, not tending to mildew. It's cheaper than petstore or walmart prices. Grass clippings tend to hold mildew and they can eat them. They won't want to eat the shavings (hopefully).

Be sure to check her crop (smell it as well from her throat) and make sure she's not slow or sour smelling. Check her vent for any clinging droppings and let us know what you find.

A summary of my advice:

Yes, worm with wazine. Reworm in 2-4 weeks with the ivermectin. Repeat ivermectin 2x's yearly at least, or more often as needed.
Yes, continue your 'glop'. Add yogurt, possibly boiled eggs. All can have the latter as well.
Possibly change the coop bedding to horse stall pine shavings.
Continue use of the vitamins/electrolytes in the water.
Take extra precautions against heat.
Change the food possibly to ramp her up for laying - add oyster shell at comb changes.
Let us know anything else you find.

Please do update us either way.

 

[viragovirgo]

Thank you Threehorses! The pullet developer I bought is "supposed" to be for layers, but of course, that is what they told me at the store, which doesn't necessarily mean that is the case. It is what they told me they needed between the chick starter and layer crumbles. (Personally I thought I could go to crumbles and then add in oyster shell when they started laying but the store personnel didn't seem to think so) hmmmm

Yes, her comb is very small, waxy and pale. All of them are about the same age, and have not started laying yet. I tried the flashlight trick earlier today and her pupils did seem to change although she didn't act like she could see my finger near her eye. The eyes look normal, no injuries, or secretions of any kind.

I was thinking that I still have some chick starter, maybe I could add that in to her mash mixture since it is "medicated". This morning I did give her a boiled egg, some rolled oats, yogurt and honey in her mash. She didn't eat all of it but she got a good amount. I am going to go make her more now and try the chick starter in it I think.

As far as changes, before this started, I can't think of any. We started letting them free range in the yard and within a few days she was looking droopy and not as energetic as the others. (oh, she did eat one earthworm that I am aware of) We do have dogs so there has been dog poo in the area also. She did go through a period where she was really bad and that is when I switched to the pullet developer (prior to that, I had started mixing scratch in with their chick starter.....after reading posts on here, I figured that was a BAD idea and changed the food) The new one is only 17% protein, is that enough? The last couple of weeks they did get quite a few blueberries and chokecherries as treats (2 or 3 a day each, maybe three days in a week), and I gave them an apple one day (no seeds). Last week I noticed she did quite a few cecal poos but then it passed and they were normal until today.

The bedding doesn't have any cedar shavings in it, but the coop itself is made from very old cedar pickets from a fence we tore down. It is pretty enclosed because we can get some cold winters here and we wanted to make sure it would be warm enough during those times.

Aside from that, I can't think of any other changes that have been made.

Thank you so much for your info. My hubby thinks it is probably getting time to put her down but I want to hang on a bit and see if we can't turn this around first. I'll try to get pictures today also if I can.

 

[threehorses]

If it's pullet (not broiler) developer, then yes - it should be. Do you have the label? Or the brand? I can look up the label (and usage description). And really it is best to do layer for layers, though the formulas are quite similar. But the birds really do need the D support and the 6:1 cal/phos balance of the layer. Calcium itself is only one leg of the 3-legged stool that comprises calcium absorbtion. Phosphorus is rarely the problem as chickens eat mainly cereals. But D can be.

Her comb tells me she's a baby girl.

And good about her pupils changing, though she's still acting abnormally. But no changes are a good sign.

A little chick starter won't hurt. It won't treat coccidiosis, but it doesn't sound like she has coccidiosis - yet - no real signs of it with pretty droppings, etc.

What did she do in the period when she was really bad? And does she have granite type grit available to her? No sign of a slow crop then maybe? ANd yes - scratch and starter don't match. Scratch is really for older birds as a treat in their bedding or in the yard to get them active, fluff up bedding, etc.

On the berries - you hand fed, right - there aren't any in the yard maybe falling down and fermenting? (I know the answer to this is "yes handfeeding, no to fermenting - but I have to dot my i's and cross my t's.)

As far as the cedar pickets, I still am not convinced that's the issue as the shavings are usually very aromatic and the pickets generally aren't. But coop air quality is still a concern so just check it out in there and make sure they're getting good ventilation - cedar pickets or not.

I really don't feel she's at the point to put her down. I think giving her more of a nutritional boost should help. I"d do what you're doing for a week and give her body time to heal. These things don't happen to her overnight (we just think they do), and healing doesn't happen overnight either. So we'll see how she does. But do check her crop and see how it empties. It should be empty in the morning before she eats - mostly empty, very little in it if anything.

 

[viragovirgo]

One other thing I thought of, of the five of them, she is the only one that has NOT been panting in the heat, and she's my only buckeye.

 

[viragovirgo]

I did hand feed the berries, however, they were stealing them from each other and they would go flying off so it is possible that maybe laid out there and she got hold of one later. I don't think so though. I've been watching her pretty close. When she got bad last time, she was stumbling quite a bit. No energy, head and tail down alot and green runny poo (all the time). So I read some forums and deducted it was probably her food and changed it to what I thought was better. And, I started giving electrolytes/vitamin pack in the water daily. (at least during the heat) She perked up and although her tail never fully came up, it wasn't pointed to the ground anymore.

I then started doing the vitamins/electolyte pack every 2 or 3 days. Then this past week she started in being pokey again (not like before, no stumbling, etc) and the tail is pointed to the ground. Both times, the heat had hit 100 and I was thinking that was it.

There seems to be a very slight improvement when I went to give her the mash just now, but, nothing to jump for joy over yet. (she did kind of eye the bowl when I set it down, whether she actually saw it or heard it, I don't know) I think I will have to use the dog/cat piperzine, because I went to two different stores and they didn't have it for cattle. The only other one I recognized was ivermectin and I couldn't afford the blue stuff so it would have to be paste. Do I stop the electrolytes for the 24 hours that I worm?

I will get the label on the food and let you know..

 

[viragovirgo]

Ok, the label just says "Zamzows Quality Feeds Pullet Developer" (thats a local place here that makes alot of their own feeds) (zamzows.com) The guaranteed analysis is:

crude protein, not less than 17%
crude fat, not less than 3%
crude fiber, not more than 7%

Then a whole list of ingredients. do you need those?

 

[viragovirgo]

Here are pics of my sick girl. Her name is Cassi

 

[viragovirgo]

Another new development (sorry, don't mean to bother) but I just went out to the pen and one of my americaunas was making this kind of snotty nose noise, then she coughed a couple of times (I'm assuming it was a cough, sounded kind of like a small bike horn). Any thoughts?

 

[viragovirgo]

Yesterday, I couldn't get her to eat anything. But last night I did make her some more and she ate very well, very hungrily. Filled her little crop right up. However, this morning her crop is still full (soft and mushy from the mash most likely) and she is back to not eating. Crop doesn't smell. She will drink water. She can find the water and the food if I leave them right in front of her so I still don't know if she's seeing anything or going by smell or something. Last night when she was eating it kind of looked like she was seeing (doing the head tilt one eye look at the dish). She is still hunched up and not moving but she's still alive. That is where we stand today.

I'm not worrying about the americauna right now, it only happened that once and I haven't heard it again. Could have been the heat I suppose. (and my 7 yr old nephew had been holding her)

I looked into the wormer I have and the difference I found is that it is 4.25% piperazine versus 17% with wazine. Mine shows a dosage of 1/4 tsp for a cat or dog under 2.5 pounds. I wonder if I could put that amount on a piece of bread or something and give each one a piece. I couldn't find anything online where anyone had used this particular one for poultry before but I would think being that it is just 1/4 of the strength, it should be okay. What do you all think?

Sorry for all the posts, just trying to keep all the info up there in case you read it, you will know what is going on and it might spark an idea or something that I wouldn't catch being so new at this.

Thank you all again for all the wonderful advice, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it!!