Heritage Breeders vs Show Breeders

[seriousbill]

I agree. When the bird is no longer recognizable when compared to the standard, and would most likely be disqualified from a show, that's when it crosses the line. Hatchery birds that are poor types usually exist somewhere in the gray area between standard-bred and random-bred. But I don't think one can say of most hatchery birds, for example, "that's not a RIR," or "that's not a Delaware." Not outright, anyway. What we can do is make a distinction between production birds and show birds or between hatchery birds and breeder birds.

Since the majority of people rely on hatcheries for birds, and since most hatcheries adhere at least loosely to a the breed standard, I don't think there's any reason to be a strict purist in everyday discussions. If the birds are not intended as show specimens, there's little harm done if they're not great types, and it's merely hurtful for people to hear that their birds don't measure up. If the person wants to enter the birds in a show, that's when a little tough love might be in order.

As to breed preservation, I think it's great that people want to preserve rare breeds, and it doesn't hurt if they start out with hatchery birds. If they are really serious about it, they will probably eventually come to realize that they need to procure stock from better lines. There's a positive learning curve at work once the person gets into it.

I realize that there are show breeders who do not think much of preservation. I've had some lengthy discussions along those lines, and I understand and respect their arguments. But a good preservationist does not forget the standard, just like a good show breeder doesn't altogether throw out production as a quality. I think there should be room for both types of projects, and I think it is important to know where you stand, what your motives are, what qualities of the breed you value, etc.

 

[speckledhen]

Well-said, Janet.

 

[NYREDS]

On the one hand hatcheries do a service by providing large numbers of people with large numbers of birds. That's how many people get started with standard bred poultry.
Unfortunately hatcheries, as their numbers have decreased, have gone more toward quantity at the expense of quality. For someone who gets into poultry keeping for show &/or heritage breeding purposes this can be very frustrating & often results in people leaving the fancy. Equally unfortunate is the fact that people on EGGBID & even on this site sell birds, chicks or eggs that they claim are "Show Quality" when clearly they are not. I think this is often because bought their stock w/o doing any homework & were told THEY were buying SQ.
What's the answer? Promote local shows, encourage people to buy a Standard before they buy a bird & above all be honest about what you're selling.
As to the original question-I'd say if the bird doesn't adhere to the established standard then why would we want to preserve it?

 

[Black Feather]

I personally don’t think there should be a group of birds dedicated to ‘heritage’ breeders and a different group to ‘show’ fanciers. I think this actually does a disservice to the poultry fancy as a whole. I become very disappointed when young 4H kids and people new to the fancy start trying to show their birds and there is just no way they can compete. Their birds barely meet the requirements to be categorized as a certain breed and when they get disqualified or never place at the shows they get discouraged and often leave the fancy. This to me simply is not fair. I personally would love to see the hatcheries lean more toward show quality birds so that these new fanciers have the option to show and at least be competitive and not get discouraged.

I’m almost at the point where I would not consider a hatchery bird to be the breed it’s advertised as being…sort of like a puppy mill pup. The mass production seems to do more harm than good to the breeds it’s supposed to represent.

That’s why I’ve been wondering at what point should I say to a heritage breeder that maybe they should get a copy of the standard and actually work a little bit at improving their stock. The last time I did this (I was polite about it) they turned their noses up at the idea as they are ‘heritage’ breeders not show breeders. In my mind there should be no difference as we should all be working to better the breeds of our choice.

But then again, that’s just my opinion.

Urban Coyote

 

[setter4]

Most of my opinion and knowledge on this subject would come from dogs.
iIbreed and show English Setters. My ES look almost nothing like most of the ES you find hunting on a fall morning. They look like 2 different breeds and are in fact 2 different strains of the same dog.
Hunters will tell you that their dogs are the REAL ES, bred for hunting ability and I will tell you that my dogs are the REAL ES, bred to the breed standard. Who is right? That's as bad as a political discussion! lol
How much difference is there between my barred rocks I got from TSC and the ones you got from a breeder? Can we see some pics to see the differences?

 

[seriousbill]

Quote:
Well, one thing I'd like to suggest, Urban Coyote, is that all "heritage" breeders are not ignoramuses who don't own a copy of the SOP and who merely work with hatchery stock in the dark with a flashlight

Part of the problem as you have sketched it seems to me to be that people who are just "bad" or inexperienced breeders are laying claim to the term "heritage" or "preservation" without really having a legitimate reason to call themselves such.

But as far as the low quality of hatchery stock decimating the fancy, well it may not be an all or nothing proposition. There is usually a series of steps to be gone through in reaching nearly any goal. The fact is that a lot of people's interest in breeding is going to come from an initial exposure to hatchery birds, and that's not always a bad thing if some of them move on to bigger and better things. And, realistically, I don't think the hatcheries are going to start producing show quality stock anytime soon.

So, the best way to approach it may simply be to acknowledge that there are better and worse specimens of both breed and breeder and to help people who are really interested in breeding to the standard to improve their stock, whether they want to show or not. I do agree that there is no way to improve stock without recourse to the breed standard. But I don't agree that all preservationists are doing the breed a disservice, especially if the hatcheries can no longer be counted upon, as they have been in the past, to keep endangered breeds going.

I once had a similar conversation with a show breeder about my breed, which is seldom available in anything except the hatchery version. He acknowledged that in his view there were only two worthy breeders nationwide. I couldn't get birds from either, because when I contacted them, one had just had his flock decimated by predators (terrible shame, that), and the other was incommunicado. Under such circumstances, people may be glad to find a heritage breeder whose birds are a step or three above hatchery quality to get a start.

 

[CountryMom]

From my experience in the guinea pig world I can understand wishes to promote and better a breed. The mass production chicken (and yes I have almost all hatchery stock) leaves so much room for error in fitting the standard. However, I have also found that two incrediable show animals can produce incrediable duds also. LOL I have seen it with the gpigs, done it and shockingly sent it off to the pet store. I also keep some stock in my guinea pigs that do not fit the Standard of Perfection for the ARBA which I follow to show and breed my stock. One of my boars in particular would be DQ'd off the table for various things. However, he has produced some of the best winning show sows ever.

In all that I have bred and raised the one rule I have learned is to know what you have and try to find the match that will correct all the faults. And you can't necessarily fix all the problems at once is you are working on a project.

For your average farmer out there, the fault of not laying eggs for a hen or not protecting the flock for the roo is probably the only main concern. I will never be able to convert a true pet owning guinea pig person who cares nothing for the ARBA standard if they really don't care. Some people just do it for the fun.

 

[Birch Run Farm]

I've gotten birds from big hatcheries and from private breeders.

I thought my hatchery birds were fine for what I wanted, they were healthy, live long lives, lay lots of eggs (various breeds), have great carcasses (broilers), are not deformed and do well in horrible weather. No, they won't win at shows.

Birds I have gotten from private breeders were 'ok' in most instances, they are not show quality and most not even breeder quality. Some have been sadly deformed and one person sent one with a clipped tail and sold it to me as 'rumpless'. I was pretty bummed out when the pullet molted and tail quills grew in. She wasn't cheap.

I think it can be difficult to get breeder quality or even show birds from private breeders as they are mostly selling off their culls, not their good stuff. Perhaps the best way is hatching eggs and try and deal with fertility issues or shipping damage?

I have some birds I bred for sale but they are listed as pet quality.

 

[mom'sfolly]

I think that there is room for both. An ameracuana with a not recognized color is considered an EE even if both parents met SOP. I think for the home flock, most people want hardy birds that lay well or produce good meat; and for some, are broody enough to reproduce. I like a diverse flock because I like lots of pretty colors in my yard. If I breed, it will probably be just playing around and seeing what I get. If I get serious about a certain breed or color variety, I think I would try to obtain hatching eggs to start with.

I think there should be people doing project breeding and breeding to the standard of perfection. That is how we maintain breeds and develop new breeds and colors....I need chocolate orpingtons so someone has to do it.

I think the problem comes in when people are not educated about what they are breeding and selling. Someone who is selling buff colored birds as RIRs clearly doesn't know what they are doing, and is misleading the public. Several on the board have spoken about buying from or talking to oldtimers who didn't know what they were selling, so it isn't limited to newbies. I think people who are selling should know what they are doing. Hatcheries are selling mass quantities, but should at least have an idea of what the chicken is supposed to look like.

 

[Black Feather]

*lol* Noooo! I would never think of any heritage breeder as an ignoramus. There are actually a few around me that are very good and working to improve their stock and showing them. I applaud them and their efforts and if I had any birds of the same breed would happily give them some to help them on their way. I give away lots of chicks to the local 4H kids and Jr exhibitors every year.

What I get concerned about is when one comes up to my place and is talking all about the heritage breeds they have and then ask me what breed my RIR is. They are genuinely surprised when I say he’s a RIR. The comment I usually hear is “He doesn’t look anything like my RIR’s”. That’s usually when I ask if they have ever considered getting a copy of the Standard and ask them if they have ever considered breeding their flock toward the Standard. Sometimes they are interested, most of the time they are not.

I think there should be some wiggle room between hatchery/heritage/show birds, but it would be nice for the gap to be a bit narrower than it is now. I hate seeing the kids (or even adults) get discouraged when their birds don’t measure up in the show room. It sort of makes sense from an economical point as well. The exchange of bloodlines could circulate between the different groups more easily. I’ve found that show quality birds can be sold between the different groups more easily than the other way around.

Seriousbill I think you summed it up well when you said ignorant or inexperienced breeders are laying claim to the term "heritage" or "preservation" without really having a legitimate reason to call themselves such. If they are interested in improving their stock once they have learned a bit more then I’m all for that. It’s the ones that have no such interest and continue to raise poor quality stock and sell them to the unsuspecting beginners that gets me a little upset and discouraged.

Urban Coyote