Horse Talk

[abigalerose]

I agree entirely, I don't think I said that the horse needed to be afraid of you, but if I did, I didn't mean too. The horse needs to feel a good bit of pressure and be sure that if it doesn't move out when asked that they WILL be whacked... and in actuality, that's the reality for my horses, if they don't move out and I CAN get close enough to them, then they will be wacked with the stick, it's just what happens. When I said that a spooky horse is easier, I probably should have said reactive, they are more sensitive and are SO relieved that you aren't going to kill them that they just relax, the more dull and lazy ones aren't that impressed.

All of mine are on the slightly reactive side naturally, even Stud is pretty spooky by nature, but I have gotten them to respect and trust me and for the most part, they don't spook at much. I HATE working with a really dead head horse, makes me run too much, and my knees and ankles just can't take it anymore, so the kind of spooky ones are nice, you spend all day trying to get them to slow down and hardly have to take a step.

Ah okay, I guess it was just they way you worded it, it seemed like you were saying the horse should be afraid of you and I was like noooo.
But we're on the same page

I have to strongly disagree with what you said about Parelli. There's a reason they teach that there are 4 phases, (suggest, ask, tell, promise). They do get firm when needed. Watch some of the videos, you'll see. Whatever you watched gave you the wrong impression.

Idk where or why, but I heard one time that Pat Parelli is actually abusive to some of his horses?
Regardless of if that's true or not, I just don't like watching him.
But I have heard a LOT of bad things

 

[GingersHuman]

Ah okay, I guess it was just they way you worded it, it seemed like you were saying the horse should be afraid of you and I was like noooo.
But we're on the same page
Idk where or why, but I heard one time that Pat Parelli is actually abusive to some of his horses?
Regardless of if that's true or not, I just don't like watching him.
But I have heard a LOT of bad things

So one person says that Parelli never makes a horse do anything, only if it wants to, and another person says he's abusive. Doesn't make sense he could be both. If you don't like to watch him, that's fine. Just go by what you've personally seen, not what others have said, and that goes for every situation, person, etc! Anyway, I really like his program and have had great success with it.

 

[Kusanar]

Quote:So one person says that Parelli never makes a horse do anything, only if it wants to, and another person says he's abusive. Doesn't make sense he could be both. If you don't like to watch him, that's fine. Just go by what you've personally seen, not what others have said, and that goes for every situation, person, etc! Anyway, I really like his program and have had great success with it.

Most people that I have met that do Parelli are very touchy feely and let the horse do whatever, like tack the horse up and take it to the riding ring, if the horse doesn't want to stand at the mounting block after a few tries then they go back to the barn... I have also seen videos of his wife where I would consiter it to be abuse. They sometimes ramp the pressure up way too fast and way too much, they will ask the horse, the horse is clearly confused, so they up the pressure, the horse tries something, it's the wrong answer so they ramp the presure up AGAIN, so eventually they are jerking on a horse who is giraffe necked and wide eyed and trying it's best to just get it's butt out of there and nothing is learned. Once the horse shows a sign that it is uncomfortable with the pressure being used, you need to hold the pressure at that amount and let the horse figure it out, they will guess a few times and probably get it wrong a time or too, but they will keep trying different things to get you to stop bugging them, and as soon as they guess right, you let the pressure off. Once the horse KNOWS what you want, then you ask and immediately ramp the pressure to medium-high because the horse needs to learn to move off of the ask not wait for you to ramp it up slowly, but during the teaching stages, you have to ramp it super slow. So, it IS really weird, I have seen Pat with great connections with his horses like when that one (casper?) fell on a picnic table he was supposed to be jumping and got his legs trapped, I have also seen testimonials from people saying that they now have great connections with their horses because of him, I have seen people that let their horses get away with murder in Pat's name, and I have seen his wife emotionally abuse horses in the name of training. If all I had see was the great connections that Pat and the people that follow him have with their horses, then yes, I would think it was a good program, but I have also seen the dangerous horses being created and the abuse. I know neither of us will convince the other, so, it is probably best if we drop this particular discussion in this thread.

 

[res]

I am going to be harsh, but... I am tired of seeing "ruined" horses from a particular trainer.

I am NOT a fan of Parelli. At all. I have seen way too much video footage of him and his wife being abusive to the horses they are training. The horses are not understanding what is asked, but Parelli & wife keep pushing and pushing and pushing and the horse(s) just get more and more freaked out and further from understanding. If it were a solitary instance, maybe I could look past, but I have seen 10+ instances of this happening. I have yet to see either Parelli astride a horse, riding it in a manner to truly demonstrate their equitation skills, such as you see with Buck Brannaman, Clinton Anderson, etc. I have never seen either Parelli in any type of riding competition.

Parelli is a showman, who has found a niche in catering to older, beginner or non-riders, particularly women. His goal IS NOT to get the rider on the horse, it is to keep the rider on the ground, endlessly buying his products in the belief that someday they will be able to ride.

I have ZERO desire to have a horse that wigs out when I wiggle a lead rope, and throws it's head up, rolls it's eyes, and races backward in a panic. I don't want that reaction when I throw my hands up in the air either.

Every GOOD horseman/horsewoman horse "business" owner/operator/manager that I have EVER met, will NOT allow their horses to be "Parelli-ized" by a Parelli fan. Every barn I have been in that uses Parelli methods, is full of horses that "can't be ridden" for one reason or another.

 

[GingersHuman]

Quote:So one person says that Parelli never makes a horse do anything, only if it wants to, and another person says he's abusive. Doesn't make sense he could be both. If you don't like to watch him, that's fine. Just go by what you've personally seen, not what others have said, and that goes for every situation, person, etc! Anyway, I really like his program and have had great success with it.

Most people that I have met that do Parelli are very touchy feely and let the horse do whatever, like tack the horse up and take it to the riding ring, if the horse doesn't want to stand at the mounting block after a few tries then they go back to the barn... I have also seen videos of his wife where I would consiter it to be abuse. They sometimes ramp the pressure up way too fast and way too much, they will ask the horse, the horse is clearly confused, so they up the pressure, the horse tries something, it's the wrong answer so they ramp the presure up AGAIN, so eventually they are jerking on a horse who is giraffe necked and wide eyed and trying it's best to just get it's butt out of there and nothing is learned. Once the horse shows a sign that it is uncomfortable with the pressure being used, you need to hold the pressure at that amount and let the horse figure it out, they will guess a few times and probably get it wrong a time or too, but they will keep trying different things to get you to stop bugging them, and as soon as they guess right, you let the pressure off. Once the horse KNOWS what you want, then you ask and immediately ramp the pressure to medium-high because the horse needs to learn to move off of the ask not wait for you to ramp it up slowly, but during the teaching stages, you have to ramp it super slow. So, it IS really weird, I have seen Pat with great connections with his horses like when that one (casper?) fell on a picnic table he was supposed to be jumping and got his legs trapped, I have also seen testimonials from people saying that they now have great connections with their horses because of him, I have seen people that let their horses get away with murder in Pat's name, and I have seen his wife emotionally abuse horses in the name of training. If all I had see was the great connections that Pat and the people that follow him have with their horses, then yes, I would think it was a good program, but I have also seen the dangerous horses being created and the abuse. I know neither of us will convince the other, so, it is probably best if we drop this particular discussion in this thread.

You can definitely take clips from videos of most if not all trainers, and out of context it could be taken wrong. I've seen people accusing Clinton, Buck, Parelli, even Julie Goodnight of being abusive, and showing clips to prove their point. Just saying its not always so, and you aren't able to see the entire picture to form your own opinion.

I am going to be harsh, but... I am tired of seeing "ruined" horses from a particular trainer. I am NOT a fan of Parelli. At all. I have seen way too much video footage of him and his wife being abusive to the horses they are training. The horses are not understanding what is asked, but Parelli & wife keep pushing and pushing and pushing and the horse(s) just get more and more freaked out and further from understanding. If it were a solitary instance, maybe I could look past, but I have seen 10+ instances of this happening. I have yet to see either Parelli astride a horse, riding it in a manner to truly demonstrate their equitation skills, such as you see with Buck Brannaman, Clinton Anderson, etc. I have never seen either Parelli in any type of riding competition. Parelli is a showman, who has found a niche in catering to older, beginner or non-riders, particularly women. His goal IS NOT to get the rider on the horse, it is to keep the rider on the ground, endlessly buying his products in the belief that someday they will be able to ride. I have ZERO desire to have a horse that wigs out when I wiggle a lead rope, and throws it's head up, rolls it's eyes, and races backward in a panic. I don't want that reaction when I throw my hands up in the air either. Every GOOD horseman/horsewoman horse "business" owner/operator/manager that I have EVER met, will NOT allow their horses to be "Parelli-ized" by a Parelli fan. Every barn I have been in that uses Parelli methods, is full of horses that "can't be ridden" for one reason or another.

My horses tend to back up quietly, heads down, just with a soft suggestion, even from 10+ ft away. I also ride my horses, everywhere. We trailer out and ride on trails, cantering and jumping sometimes. You also can't take people who say they follow a certain program or trainer and judge that program/trainer by that person, or their horse. It doesn't bother me if people don't like Parelli, that's okay, each to his own. Just don't go by short clips taken out of context, what other people say, or how other people represent them. Anyway, if we were to judge all people in the same fashion, how many of us have never made a mistake or a wrong choice, or even done the right thing, but if it had been on video, could have been misconstrued, even for a few seconds?

 

[abigalerose]

So one person says that Parelli never makes a horse do anything, only if it wants to, and another person says he's abusive. Doesn't make sense he could be both. If you don't like to watch him, that's fine. Just go by what you've personally seen, not what others have said, and that goes for every situation, person, etc! Anyway, I really like his program and have had great success with it.

I haven't personally watched much of his stuff, so I can only say what I've heard, which may or may not be wrong. What I've heard is just a lot of him preaching about only asking and never telling, but then in reality him (or maybe his wife?) actually being abusive. And I think in one instance I heard that they withheld water from a horse? I know I heard it about someone and I think it was them.

I am going to be harsh, but... I am tired of seeing "ruined" horses from a particular trainer.

I am NOT a fan of Parelli. At all. I have seen way too much video footage of him and his wife being abusive to the horses they are training. The horses are not understanding what is asked, but Parelli & wife keep pushing and pushing and pushing and the horse(s) just get more and more freaked out and further from understanding. If it were a solitary instance, maybe I could look past, but I have seen 10+ instances of this happening. I have yet to see either Parelli astride a horse, riding it in a manner to truly demonstrate their equitation skills, such as you see with Buck Brannaman, Clinton Anderson, etc. I have never seen either Parelli in any type of riding competition.

Parelli is a showman, who has found a niche in catering to older, beginner or non-riders, particularly women. His goal IS NOT to get the rider on the horse, it is to keep the rider on the ground, endlessly buying his products in the belief that someday they will be able to ride.

I have ZERO desire to have a horse that wigs out when I wiggle a lead rope, and throws it's head up, rolls it's eyes, and races backward in a panic. I don't want that reaction when I throw my hands up in the air either.

Every GOOD horseman/horsewoman horse "business" owner/operator/manager that I have EVER met, will NOT allow their horses to be "Parelli-ized" by a Parelli fan. Every barn I have been in that uses Parelli methods, is full of horses that "can't be ridden" for one reason or another.

I agree with almost everything in this! And I even hate the way that Clinton teaches his horses to back up. I don't think wiggling the lead rope should be a signal to back up as fast as possible, it seems like it's something that could easily go wrong. I personally have taught June to back up with the riding crop, I'll stand at her shoulder both of us facing the same way, hold the riding crop in front of her chest, and step backwards and she goes with me, no wiggling ropes or quick jerky movements, she moves when I move and when I stop and put down the riding crop she stops too, and I think I'm going to teach every horse I have to do it this way from now it, it's a lot easier than tugging the lead rope backward but not as drastic as the wiggling the lead rope technique, and its something I can do when I don't have a lead rope on her. She'll even do it if I just use my arm instead of the riding crop, but it's a little slower.
But anyways, the horse I had, Jade, was trained with only Clinton Anderson methods (and it was super obvious) and I did NOT like riding her, every movement was huge and fast, nothing was ever relaxing with her, it was all work work work, and I like to just have nice simple rides sometimes.
So there's a lot of trainers and techniques I don't like, truthfully there's more small time trainers on Instagram that I like more than a lot of the pros.
But everyone has different opinions!
If Parelli or Clinton work for you and your horse, that's all that matters

 

[GingersHuman]

Abigale, instead of quoting your last post and having to filter through all of it, per the withholding water comment...

A common way to gentle a Mustang, an untouched youngster, or other extreme "can't catch" horses is to take the water or of their pen/ no free access to water. Then you either have water in a corral (for horses you truly can't touch/ approach) or you carry a bucket out (for a horse that is tame, but just doesn't want to be caught) and twice or 3 times a day you open the corral or hold the bucket for the horse. A horse can smell the water, and after a couple days they will begin approaching for water. Thirst is a great motivator. This gets the horse looking to you for its needs. Of course, this is only in extreme cases, where other things haven't worked. Also, in the wild, horses generally only go to water once a day or every other day.

 

[Bunnylady]

Abigale, instead of quoting your last post and having to filter through all of it, per the withholding water comment...

A common way to gentle a Mustang, an untouched youngster, or other extreme "can't catch" horses is to take the water or of their pen/ no free access to water. Then you either have water in a corral (for horses you truly can't touch/ approach) or you carry a bucket out (for a horse that is tame, but just doesn't want to be caught) and twice or 3 times a day you open the corral or hold the bucket for the horse. A horse can smell the water, and after a couple days they will begin approaching for water. Thirst is a great motivator. This gets the horse looking to you for its needs. Of course, this is only in extreme cases, where other things haven't worked. Also, in the wild, horses generally only go to water once a day or every other day.

That may work OK for animals that are on grass, which has a fairly high moisture content, but I'll bet anyone that has been around horses for long knows of at least one case of a horse that had an impaction colic simply from not drinking enough. I know of someone who lost a mini who actually was on grass that way, and the only thing the vet who did the necropsy could think, was that because the grass was getting rained on at the time, it was wet enough the horse just didn't feel inspired to go get a drink when it should have. In most of the colics that I have been witness to, the veterinarians' first line of attack was fluids; both into the digestive system and with IV's. A horse doesn't have to be dehydrated to get into this sort of trouble; just a diet that is low in moisture (mostly hay, for example) can result in gut contents that aren't fluid enough to keep moving on through, if the animal isn't drinking appropriate amounts of water for some reason (the water is too cold, or it tastes funny, or the water trough is near a gate that is being guarded by a more dominant horse, etc). Clearly, restricting a horse's access to water is a potentially life-threatening situation; anyone that uses it as a training technique must be willing to lose the horse rather than lose the battle, as it were. I think most of us have too much invested in the horse (both financially and emotionally) to risk such a desperate maneuver, to say nothing of what Animal Control would do if they found out about it.

 

[PeepersMama]

Oh yay, this was JUST the conversation I needed to see/hear. Dads been wanting to pen up Smoke and have me lead him to water every day. I hated that idea :/ I think just penning him up so that if he wants to run, "he's got to go through me" per say. Thoughts on that?

 

[Kusanar]

Abigale, instead of quoting your last post and having to filter through all of it, per the withholding water comment...


A common way to gentle a Mustang, an untouched youngster, or other extreme "can't catch" horses is to take the water or of their pen/ no free access to water. Then you either have water in a corral (for horses you truly can't touch/ approach) or you carry a bucket out (for a horse that is tame, but just doesn't want to be caught) and twice or 3 times a day you open the corral or hold the bucket for the horse. A horse can smell the water, and after a couple days they will begin approaching for water. Thirst is a great motivator. This gets the horse looking to you for its needs. Of course, this is only in extreme cases, where other things haven't worked. Also, in the wild, horses generally only go to water once a day or every other day.

That may work OK for animals that are on grass, which has a fairly high moisture content, but I'll bet anyone that has been around horses for long knows of at least one case of a horse that had an impaction colic simply from not drinking enough. I know of someone who lost a mini who actually was on grass that way, and the only thing the vet who did the necropsy could think, was that because the grass was getting rained on at the time, it was wet enough the horse just didn't feel inspired to go get a drink when it should have. In most of the colics that I have been witness to, the veterinarians' first line of attack was fluids; both into the digestive system and with IV's. A horse doesn't have to be dehydrated to get into this sort of trouble; just a diet that is low in moisture (mostly hay, for example) can result in gut contents that aren't fluid enough to keep moving on through, if the animal isn't drinking appropriate amounts of water for some reason (the water is too cold, or it tastes funny, or the water trough is near a gate that is being guarded by a more dominant horse, etc). Clearly, restricting a horse's access to water is a potentially life-threatening situation; anyone that uses it as a training technique must be willing to lose the horse rather than lose the battle, as it were. I think most of us have too much invested in the horse (both financially and emotionally) to risk such a desperate maneuver, to say nothing of what Animal Control would do if they found out about it.

I almost lost one of my Arabian due to an implication colic due to extreme dehydration to the point that he had a heart murmor.... and he had access to 200 gallons of water, just chose not to drink for some reason...