I'm no big fan of most of the 'natural horsemanship' I've seen - it looks no better than Celtic's description - often much worse. I'm in favor of commonsense.
have to have hock injections and fluid removed.
Many show horses are not very well cared for or ethically handled.
Hock injections MAY be used to mask developing arthritis for a short time so the horse can be briefly competed and quickly sold. However, all hock injections are not created equal. Some are beneficial and preventative.
super head shy, I can't move with out throwing it's head.
Two possibilities. One - the horses are simply used to movements and handling that you aren't familiar with. They may be sensitive animals. Two - they have been roughed up and are guarded and afraid.
horses get an hour out side in pasture
Despite what many horse owners think, many horses do well with reduced turnout, and in many barns, even an hour turnout is not available, though I would think it should be. The key is plenty of attention and exercise, other horses nearby in the barn, and a routine they can rely on. Some horses cannot be turned loose - this is not unusual with breeding stallions who go looking for love when they get loose. Then more activity and exercise is needed.
Many competitors take excellent care of their horses. One barn I worked at, the horses were taken out of their stalls six times a day. But not all barns are that good about it.
maybe 3 hours a day out of the stall? I don't feel like that's enough.
Don't judge so hard. Three hours out of the stall is fine for a horse and many horses do very well on such a routine. The key is plenty of attention, activity, other horses nearby and a routine they can depend on.
5 horses knocking their walls playing with their buckets.
It's possible that you're just not used to grained up, fit horses. If a horse is very fit and up on his toes, he will be goofing around all day whether he's in a pasture or not.
It's ALSO possible that you ARE looking at restless, bored horses.
They don't have windows, well they do, but the glass is frosted.
I wouldn't get too bothered about windows. A good many horses really do not react well to having windows in their stalls, especially behind them when they're eating.
a horse in training was pawing at the ground and the rider kicked it in the stomach
Not unusual around a lot of horse people, but not something I find necessary. I've always found that it's the less experienced people who make a big obvious production out of disciplining horses.
top ten hunter in hand two year old in the cross ties and he was pawing while trying to wrap his legs and she punched him.
Again, you have to understand that every single horse person that exists, will fight to the death with any other horseman, about how severely and in what way to discipline horses for things like this. If you said you wouldn't punch or whip a horse plenty of people would shout, 'well then I suppose you're going to ruin and spoil him and make him into a menace!'
Me, I don't punch horses. I have a chain shank on the horse that goes over his nose, and I jerk it and quietly and firmly say, 'NO'. The way I position my body and move is a lot more subtle than a punch and the horses understand it.
BUT....a big two year old can be awfully naughty and pushy, and I try not to judge people too hard if they get frustrated or impatient out of inexperience. But I don't have the excuse of inexperience to fall back on to and I know discipline can be done quietly, efficiently and effectively, without punching.
But Celtic - you will look very long and very hard, to find people that can control a horse quietly and efficiently. Average people cannot. When they handle a horse it looks like Monday Night Professional Wrestling. The people who taught me, they're far better than me at it - I watch them in awe.
I went to put it's lead rope over its neck and it set back and almost took the cross ties with her.
Take it easy and move slowly, talk and pat a little, move slowly. Your horses trust you and have confidence in you, and you may have gotten a little sloppy and unaware of how you affect other horses not accustomed to you.
Celtic, no matter what barn you go to, you will see things you don't agree with.
With professionals, they often don't have the time to be very gentle, they just get the job done and are always in something of a hurry.
When I started working at barns as a 12 year old kid, I thought EVERYONE was doing EVERYTHING wrong. Everything I saw, I was critical. I thought I knew it all - from being in one little barn, from handling easy horses, from having all the time in the world to do what I planned to do, etc.
I had to learn - I did NOT know it all. Big youngsters can be pretty darn rough to deal with.
It was a long process for me, to learn that SOME of what I saw was necessary, but also to learn that there was ALSO unneccesary roughness and some pretty bad tempers floating around here and there as well.
At its best, with 'I'm not the Mommy' handling, horses aren't spoiled, they know their job and they respect their handler and do not hurt people, knock them over, step on them. They are obedient and reliable, safe partners - trustworthy and highly valued companions.
At its worst - well, it can be taken to extremes.
Some of what you are describing, to me, is normal and not harmful. On the other hand, some of it makes me uncomfortable.
You will have to take this journey yourself, and learn and decide for yourself as you grow. You'll make mistakes, bad calls sometimes, but you'll learn.
You can wind up quitting at every barn you work at and no one will hire you, you can wind up doing things you don't feel comfortable doing.
It's important to weigh the situation and not make a lot of enemies in the business, somehow still remain employable and be able to live with yourself and go to sleep at night.
For all you know, your quiet handling might become rather popular, and even change how people at that barn handle their horses. I've seen people do that, too.
Sometimes I can get people to see a different way, sometimes I can't. When the manager at one barn was regaling me with stories about how he had to rough up one of the horses to clip it, how it was absolute murder to clip, I said let me do him then, I'll clip him and I won't have to do any of that. He'll just stand there and I'll clip him.
Of course that's exactly how it went, but the only effect was that for the rest of the time I was there, I was the one clipping that horse, LOL.
