How do you safely keep chickens and dogs?

[kaddidle]

How do you know how much you can safely let a dog around chickens?

I grew up on a farm where we kept a free-ranging mixed flock. We had sheep dogs that moved freely among the birds and chased off predators, and we never had a problem with our dogs harming chickens. In fact, it wasn't unusual for me to look out the window to see one of the dogs curled up with a bunch of chicks in a sunny spot on the grass.

I recently decided to get back into the hobby of backyard chicken keeping and ordered just three chicks. My nine year old basset/spaniel mix, who has grown up living with cockatiels, parakeets, and lots of other small animals, behaved around them the same way my childhood dogs did, wagging her tail and sniffing them calmly. My other two dogs, a lab/dane mix and a purebred Dane, seemed fine as well. I made both of them lie down before I'd let the chicks walk around near them. The lab/dane seemed to enjoy it and would be very calm and the purebred Dane would get up and walk away if the chicks came near.

I apparently got over-confident about how well my dogs were doing. A friend brought over his pit bull who we knew had a high prey drive. Of course we kept him away from the brooder and didn't let the chicks run around near him, but I obviously wasn't prepared for how fast accidents could happen when I let one of my chicks perch on my finger while he was in the same room, and before I even realized he knew she was there he'd gotten her out of my hand and it was too late.

Of course I felt terrible about it and stupid for letting it happen (and of course it was my favorite bird of the bunch). I decided not to allow any visiting dogs at my house until the chicks were out safely in their run. Meanwhile, I supervised extra-carefully when my own dogs were around, but the two who were interested remained good about staying very calm around the birds and the Dane continued to avoid them if they were out in the house.

On one of the first warm days of spring, I took my two surviving chicks outside to walk around on the grass inside of a dog crate with no plastic tray in the bottom. I set them inside, watched them for a moment, and then decided to walk inside to get a sandwich and a glass of tea to sit and eat while I watched them forage for the first time.

Apparently in the one or two minutes that my back was turned, both chicks slipped out of the opening at the bottom of the crate. My purebred Dane slipped out the door right as I was walking out, though I didn't think anything of it since I thought the birds were caged and since she'd never shown an interest in them before, but as soon as she saw them hopping around in the grass she took off for one. I was so shocked I didn't see what happened clearly and I don't know if she bit the bird or just stepped on it, but it was crushed before I had time to react. When I called her back, she calmly walked away from the surviving bird and hung her head.

Now I've learned a lot of obvious lessons--small chicks can squeeze out of tiny holes, one should not have birds out at all in the presence of aggressive dogs, and dogs that ignore birds in the house can get over excited and chase the same birds on the lawn. But now I don't know what I can safely expect out of my dogs. Since the death of the second chick, I have moved the brooder into a section of the house completely isolated from all the dogs because I don't want to risk any more accidents. Should I ever let any of my dogs around my birds again? Ideally, I'd like them to be used enough to the birds that they would stay calm around them and not chase them, but after the two incidents above I wish I could enclose my birds in some kind of giant bubble that no other animal could enter.

 

[Sugar Sand Farm]

Its hard to say what a dog will do. I have three dogs a collie, a golden retriever and a great pyrenese. I wouldnt trust any of them with chicks let alone chickens. Now my daughter has 2 pitbulls who come over and they totally ignore the birds. I have watched them walk right past the ducks or chickens freeranging. My dogs have the front yard which is fenced in. I have a separate area for my chickens with a big 5 ft high gate. my chickens have the freedom behind that gate. Whats strange is when the dogs are out of their front yard they dont seem to bother the ducks that get out and freerange in the front pasture but if they are in the front yard then they are fair game to the dogs. Maybe keep your dogs on a leach until you are sure about them not hurting the chickens but I would keep them well away from chicks.

 

[Tala]

My two dogs would probably eat a brooder-chick in one chomp if they could.
I have two totes full of chicks on top of my Lab's crate....plus 11 chicks in a dog-proofed tractor. The other day a chick escaped right in front of the Lab's nose while I was changing the water. Egads! I thought he was a goner! But I yelled NO as the dog put his nose down towards the chick, and he didn't bite it. Whew, disaster avoided!

I free range 8-week olds and the dogs don't bother them at all though. Once my rooster considers them part of his flock, they are very safe from my dogs or cats (Both of my dogs and my husband are scared of my rooster

)

I think humans make a fatal body language error when they hold a chick out to the dog for the dog to "sniff". I think that looks like you are giving it to the dog. My dogs seem to think it's permission to take the chick. Better to just keep the dogs slightly away from the chickens. My cats used to paw at chicks through the dog crate wires, but I just pushed their paws away every time. Now they ignore chicks in the brooder because they know they are not allowed to mess with them.
Same with the dogs. Just push them away (being as forceful as is necessary) Teach them that the chicks are off limits.
[obviously this advice would NOT work on a highly prey-driven dog who is chasing chickens for fun. Or on a dog who doesn't respect your rules about things being "off limits" -example if you can keep your dog out of the trashcan by telling him no, then you can probably keep him out of the brooder too.]
Only you know your dogs. Only you know how much you can train and control. Only you can know if they will [probably] obey.

If you want to be 100% safe with NO margin of error - build a dog-proofed coop and run, OR a dog-secure kennel area, and keep the birds and dogs completely separated all the time.
When I first got my Lab and was training him to listen to me (he wasn't bad, but I was a new owner to him, you understand) the chickens free ranged in the daylight and the dog played fetch in the same yard after the birds went to bed in their coop. They were never unsupervised together.

 

[Knock Kneed Hen]

I agree . . . my dogs ignore the birds when they're just hanging out, but I know if one bird was to get excited and cluck/run that the dogs would be on them. I don't know if they'd kill them or not but I'm not willing to find out. I took my little schnauzer/poodle mutt to a friends house (also her groomer) to feed the animals. She's never acted like she even noticed the chickens. All of the sudden, who knows why, she took off after a rooster. I hollered at her but I couldn't get her to stop and come to me. She was determined!! The bird got away and found a hiding spot. Luckily he only lost his tail feathers. Oh, and I have a macaw that the dogs all ignore too.

 

[kaddidle]

Thanks so much for all of the replies!

The incident with the pit bull was pretty traumatic even though I should have known to avoid it. I do pit rescue and this was one of my rescue pups that I'd had since he was just weaned. By the time my friend adopted him, I knew that he had an inherent prey drive. We have pretty strict rules about him being around other animals--he's never around any except for my pets that he's grown up with unless he's leashed and muzzled, and he's never around any animal unless he's very closely supervised. Having such a small prey animal out in the room with him was such an obviously bad idea that I can't believe I tried it. He's been trained to behave calmly around cats, and some naive part of me thought that it would translate into being ok with a chicken in the hand. Dumb decision.

When my Dane killed a chick, it really shook me. She's a gentle dog. She's lived with puppies, kittens, and a ferret. But she's a rescue that I didn't get until she was almost two, so she didn't get all of the socialization with birds that my basset/spaniel did. Also, I know that Danes are descended from sight hounds, and I knew that she'd chase squirrels and other critters in the yard.

I'm now paranoid that she's going to snap a chick the same way that the pit did. I wonder if anyone has any clues about how to know if a dog will do this? I *think* that the incident that happened with the Dane was just because she suddenly found herself faced with a small, flapping animal in her yard, but the fact that the pit could take an animal out of my hand before I could even realize how close he was has made me feel really untrusting of all dogs.

I'll definitely be keeping all my baby birds out of reach of even the most gentle of dogs from now on.

 

[kaddidle]

To add regarding my dogs--all are rescues and the Dane is the most nutty of rescues, but all have been through obedience training and the Dane is still taking classes to help with her socialization. All have a good recall and understand NO. I'm just afraid that I won't give the command fast enough if they're anywhere near the birds!

 

[Tala]

Quote:
since you lack confidence in yourself, the dogs will sense that, you will probably be better of building a secure dog-proofed chicken house and run. It will probably make you feel a lot better not having to worry so much

Build it big enough for you to sit inside the run with the chickens if you want to, so you can hold them on your fingers or whatever and the dogs can't sneak up on you.

 

[nzpouter]

so you're saying the pit actually snatch the chick out of your hand....? Not a good sign...

 

[kaddidle]

We are building a secure and dog-proofed run with enough room for me to sit inside and hang out with the birds. I was hoping to be able to let them out to forage when I'm in the yard with them gardening or what have you.

Yes, the pit snatched the chick out of my hand, which was horrible. He came up quietly and moved a lot faster than I did. (Also, I was sitting down, so the bird was close to eye level.) He's also extremely aggressive to small animals. He's a friend's dog who was visiting, though, and he'll not be allowed anywhere near my chickens ever again for obvious reasons. His owner is in total agreement that it was a mistake to have him on the same property as birds and was very apologetic.

My problem now is that I'm paranoid that one of my own dog is going to be as unpredictably aggressive, especially now that I've discovered that she'll chase a flapping bird outside in the yard.

since you lack confidence in yourself, the dogs will sense that

Tala is totally right about this! These incidents have put a huge dent in my confidence in my dogs and in myself as a trainer. That's why I'm trying to regain some perspective on how to keep chickens and dogs safe around each other so that I can enjoy all of my pets without constantly worrying.

I know I'll definitely feel better once we get the chicken run built and I already feel better now that I've stopped handling the birds in the same room as the dogs, but I'm wondering if I'll need to be vigilant about keeping them constantly separated forever or if one day, once my chicks are grown, I could safely try to have the dogs around them with the dogs on leashes or walk through the house with a bird in my hands without first locking the dogs away or making them all lie down.​

 

[teach1rusl]

Okay...I'm gonna be odd man out on this one. I think it's still important to socialize your dogs with your chickens, even if you don't plan on them every sharing a space. You never know when they might accidentally come in contact with one another. And if they've learned that the birds are part of YOUR pack, something negative is less likely to happen. Maybe you will never trust the dogs to be with your birds unsupervised, but I still think training and exposure is good.

I would NOT have trusted either of my dogs (gold. retrievers) around my girls when they were chicks...unsupervised. They watched me handle the chicks over a baby gate, and I would let one or the other sniff around the brooder and watch them (always commanding "gentle"), and I would occasionally let one or the other sniff a chick I was cupping.
Later, when the chicks/pullets were old enough for the run, I worked with the dogs by taking one at a time into the run with me (hand on collar), and just sitting there among the girls...always reminding "gentle" when the birds would come around. I would make the dog lay down at first too. I worked up to walking a dog around on a leash in the run, and eventually to off leash (with me there of course...and always reminding "gentle). Now, with the girls 6 months old, I 100% trust my male with them unsupervised, but he is older, calm, and I know hime and trust him inside and out. My female is younger, and not as trustworthy. I trust that she would not intentionally kill one of my girls. But she has faux jumped at one before (like she does my male cat when she's trying to get him to play)...didn't go after her, but you could tell she wanted the chicken to react. And I've seen her growl if a chicken came to check out what she was chewing on (she has food aggression issues). I 100% trust her with the chickens free ranging as long as DH or I are out walking about, but not unsupervised. We may get there eventually though, as she ages. And actually, she is the better guard dog of the two...the one that will run off large birds (including hawks) who perch or soar nearby.

I'm sorry about your chicks, especially the one your dog got, because I think it's harder when one of your own pets kills another. My guess would be that it was NOT an intentional kill. A dog that size is just rough on small animals, especially if it's a younger dog (and younger w/danes and labs can be until 2 or 3 years). So IMO, I'd still expose them (not as closely) to your chick(s) as they're growing up. Maybe they will or maybe they won't ever be able to "hang out" with your chickens...only you can determine that after you work with them for a few months. But I think it will make you feel better if you do work with them, because you'll really know what the limits are then.