How horses learn... need some ideas for an issue I have

[bkreugar]

I have ridden for 28 years now and have a wealth of "horsey friends" I can get useful advice from but they and I are currently stumped.

Last april I bought myself a new mare.LOVE her, she is a GREAT partner and honestly I fell for her the MINUTE I walked into sellers barn. Seller only had her for 8 weeks as she was part of a mother/son package,they only wanted him and did NOT like her. I could not figure out why until recently.When I went to pick her back feet , they told me not to bother she was HORRIBLE and would kick they said. So I try her and buy her for a steal...again they did not like her.

She is 11 and I worked with her for about 6 weeks on the picking the feet thing and eventually~I~ was able to get her over it.I thought...Problem solved!I discovered mare has HORIIFIC DEEP BIG scar on her left rear leg, down to the bone with extra calcification of bone tissue.I SUSPECT something awful hapened and she either relates touching her back legs to either the pain of injury OR the pain of nursing/healing.I will never know.

Mare is 100% sound and very nice under saddle, a friend of my daughters would ride her when she came over.This friend is has a horse of her own.But the issue was ...SHE could not pick the mares feet, nor my daughter. But I have no issue.I thought okay, that is not great as the mare won't submit, but I will excuse it for now.

So summer comes and mare HAS to have shoes on front as she was SOO ouchy on the trail.She gets them at my Daughters trainers when DD was there for camp and a show.I was NOT there, and blacksmith says she was AWFUL!!! REALLY AWFUL!!! 8 weeks later someone else does them and again I was not there.DD's trainer says mare was better for this blacksmith.

2 weeks ago I have that blacksmith put shoes on again as we are starting to trial ride again.It was here at my house and the mare WAS bad!!! She is fine about the fronts and all parts of teh shoeing on the front.Gives the foot without being asked, but threatens to kick, or kicks or pulls away on the backs.And that is just a trim as she does not need shoes behind.

So the mare has learned to let ~me~ clean and handle her back legs but no one else. So I don;t know HOW to get this issue addressed.Blacksmith was not that upset and said he would come back.He was pretty unflappable.But I can't figure out how to get her to make the leap from letting (that's really not accaptable anyway that she would LET me) me do her back legs to ANYONE else.

I got her over it from brushing her EVERYWHERE, even legs, running my hands lower and lower on her hind quarters, asking for her foot, she would move away and ask again and again and again.One day she let me pick it up.I just picked it up a minute, and then praised her and we moved forward from there.With me she was never mean, just avoidant.With the blacksmith when he insists she got nasty and kicked.

I don't know if this matters or not but she is ALWAYS better for me than anyone else.She genuinely likes me and follows me if I am out. We have a great relationship and again she is AWESOME on teh trail.She is unflappable and crosses anything with confidence.We also showed some last year and she was fantastic.I adore her and my oldest dearest horse friend says that is why she is better for me.But that seems to be putting more emotion to a horse than I think they feel.

How do I solve this?Based on the blacksmith incident it is EASY to see why the people I bought her from did not like her!

 

[Fuffy]

My mini shetland had foot issues too, when I got him 2 1/2 years ago. He was 3 and he had NEVER had his feet trimmed or picked out. He din't believe it was possible for a horse (even a small one) to stand on 3 legs. He also had HUGE trust issues, and it took me months before he would let me get anywhere near him.
I did the same as you: I brushed him all over and talked and rewarded. At first he was ok with me, and eventually he got better with other people too. In his case it was important to remember that just because I COULD make him do things, it was wrong to do it.

Anyway...Perseverence is the answer. With horses there is no quick fix. Does your daughter live with you? And is she experienced enough to help you? And committed enough? Could you get her to help you? If the mare has 2 people who can pick up her feet, then the step to a 3rd person is smaller.

Lots of farriers will say that they want the mare sedated to shoe her. Obviously that is not going to solve your problems. Personally, I would not like to leave her with a farrier I didn't know - I did that once, and he hit my mare with the thin edge of his rasp. Apparently it was her fault that her feet were so near the floor...Needless to say he is no longer my farrier!

If you realy feel that you are not making any progress, then I would suggest you get in touch with someone like Pat Perelli or Mony Roberts. Hey, at least you are on the right continent!

Good luck - I hope it comes right! It sounds like the mare is a nice person who merits a bit of TLC and understanding!

 

[Rusty Hills Farm]

She has learned to trust that you will not hurt her. Obviously someone DID hurt her or tended her while she was hurt, and now the memory of the pain causes her not to trust others. If she were mine, I think I would start her back feet myself. You can pick them up so next take the pick to them, then the rasp. Even though you are not actually trimming her, you are getting her more comfortable that tools near her back feet will not hurt her. When you get her to that point, it is time to add another person to the mix and work with the mare until she will accept the other person holding her while you fuss with her hind feet. Eventually you finish the feet and have the 2nd person just brush her back, hindquarters, and eventually down the leg. It will likely take a few sessions before she will allow that person to actually handle those feet.

Are the farriers who have done her this far male or female? You might try the opposite sex once you get her accepting a 2nd person handling her feet.

This mare is remembering pain. Apparently horses remember pain differently than we do. I had an injured stud once who continued to limp even after the injury healed. The massage therapist thought he was remembering the pain so we basically taught him that the pain was gone. It took a couple of weeks, but one day I saw the lightbulb go off in his eyes and he took off running for the first time since the injury. All told it took us a good 2-3 weeks AFTER he was completely healed to convince him that it would not hurt to run again. I'll bet that is what you are dealing with here. Being firm is not going to help. She thinks it is going to hurt and until you convince her otherwise, she is going to resist.

Good luck with this!


Rusty

 

[bkreugar]

Both blacksmiths so far have been men.This one was NOT mean to her and tried , really tried to make friends with her. She would pick up front foot before he asked for it but as soon as he went towards the back, the mare pinned her ears and looked pretty nasty.I was really taken aback by the volume of her upset.

I will work with the rasp as I can pick her backs no problem.I was debating on trying my DD with her back kegs and getting her to do what I did.But DD (12) is very reluctant and says the mare doesn;t like her. The mare has noticabley different dispostion with me than her.DD at 12 says mare is jealous of dd.I can not sway dd's oppinion. She says mare LOVES you and HATES me.So I don;t know how much of a help she would be.DD is intimidated by mare because she is not approachable with dd the way she is with me.DD would need to put some daily effort into making friends.

Prime example is I walk out the door and mare nickers and I say "hey gorgeous, how ya doing?" DD walks out and says "hi ya dumb blonde!" not really condusive to a partnership.

 

[Skyesrocket]

But DD (12) is very reluctant and says the mare doesn;t like her.

I wouldn't let the 12 year old attempt working with her back feet until she is comfortable doing so. If her mindset is that the mare dislikes her the mare could pick up on those feelings and try to scare her.
This sounds very much like my Arabian mare. She was great with her fronts and a whole other horse with her backs. I could pick them out without a problem but she went nasty when anyone else tried. I think it was an Arab thing. The horse bonded to me and my granddaughter and didn't want to be bothered by any other people for anything.
What worked for us was for the farrier to start with the backs first. I don't have a clue why that worked, but it did. All I could think of was that it is how she was used to getting trimmed and didn't like the change?
Good Luck with your gal.​

 

[michickenwrangler]

Patience, patience, patience.

It may take a year or two, but just keep working with her back legs. Have some of your knowledgeable friends try to build a rapport with her to let her get used to people other than you.

Good luck

 

[LaurelRidgeDreams]

Sounds to me like the mare has a trust issue. Most likely this is a result of a bad experience, like you expressed.

A friend boards her horse here at our farm. She bought Chester as a five year old and was told he didn't like farriers. Understatement!! Long story short, she had a very good Natural Horsemanship trainer ,who was also a farrier at the time, work with him and within 30 min. he was able to begin to shoe him on the front and trim the back hooves. Total time it took was about 90 min.

The NH trainer kept shoes on the horse for about a year and then Chester came to live at my house. At this time the decision was made not shoe him but to use Renegade boots when needed. The NH trainer was not a barefoot trimmer. A barefoot trimmer was located and came to our farm to trim all of the horses in preparation to use boots. Chester would not let her touch him, anywhere! No amount of coaxing worked not even with the owner here. The horse absolutely did not trust her and must have known she was there to work on his hooves. So, an appointment was made for the NH trainer to come and help the trimmer.

Two weeks later they both came to the farm and worked with Chester for over two hours before the trimmer could pick up a foot. After another hour, they had his hooves trimmed, no shoes. It's been three years and a long process. It now takes her about 15 to 20 min. and no longer than it takes to trim the other horses. Chester has learned to trust her. I really don't know why he doesn't trust people but we think a past farrier or someone gave him reason not to trust. He is a horse that has to be convinced of your intentions before he can trust. I don't think he will ever change. His owner has no problems putting boots on all four feet. I can do the same.

If you have a good NH trainer in your area it may be possible to have this person work with your mare and help her. Where are you located?

 

[bkreugar]

Skeyesrocket the mare is a pintabian.She is a qh/arab cross.I enjoy this girl more than any other I have ever had save one who was a full arabian. My QH friend swears the reason the mare is so tractable and great on trail is because she is 1/2 QH.Maybe I don;t know but she is so much FUN on the trail.bombproof on the trail and this fall we did the costume class at the fun show and went to the fall parade dressed up.

I can tack her up and WALK to the mounting block and she follows.I really enjoy her and got everything I was hoping for.But boy was I embarrased with the blacksmith!!!!!

And michickenwrangler her NAME is Patience cuz it took me 10 full months of looking most every weekend.I looked at about 30 horses and thought my riding days were through!

I guess I just wonder if I can desensitize her bein bothered about the back legs all together or am I stuck like this forever.Blacksmith said she could have been worse but boy she is the worst I ever had for the blacksmith.Again I just thought okay problem solved!

 

[Rusty Hills Farm]

I will say this: I have a 4-year-old stallion that I can do ANYTHING with. He clips, loads, trails, cuts, reins--for me. Nobody else can touch him. Not the vet. Not the farrier. Nobody except my SO and then only I am not home and it is getting dark or starting to rain. Then he will come to the gate and consent to allow SO to put him in the stall. Otherwise he will not allow anybody else to touch him. I have had this horse since the day he was born. Nothing bad has EVER happened to him. Nobody has ever hit him or abused him. He just made up his mind on the day that he was born that I am acceptable but nobody else is and there is no changing his mind. It's a PITA. But on the other hand, he has won me so much money cutting and reining! And there is nothing that I cannot ask him to do. Just today he pulled my little truck out of a mud wallow. You'd have thought he pulled blue trucks out of the mud every day, he was that matter-of-fact about it. So I shrug my shoulders and accept him the way he is. In my mind the good far outweighs that one quirk. At least I know nobody will ever steal him!

Maybe your mare is of the same opinion? Who knows. I guess it all depends on what is acceptable to you. I have had dozens of horses over the years. Each one has had some small quirk but NOBODY has ever decided the rest of the world is not acceptable except this one. Kinda makes him unique, I suppose. Or maybe I'm just getting old and more tolerant or something.

Rusty

 

[wyndski]

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