How intense is your pecking order?

[thecatumbrella]

Our first flock did not have any noticeable pecking order until everyone had started laying around 6-7 months old. Then it went from 0 to 60. Butt feathers were being eaten. Chickens were rehomed.

My new bantam flock is the polar opposite. 17 weeks old. Non-stop drama, and no one's even laying yet. If two chickens square off, the loser is now subject to pecking and chasing by the winner at any and all times. They can't even walk past each other! It will eventually simmer down a bit, but then a new pair gets going and the cycle repeats. We're at the point where all toys and fun enrichment items (including an empty water bottle to peck at) have been removed from the run because THEY CANNOT HANDLE IT! Seriously, why are we fighting over a piece of plastic? One was even guarding the foot bath I put in on a hot day. A foot bath. You're afraid of the foot bath! Why are you chasing her away from it?!

Dandelion's afraid of Poppy. Poppy's afraid of Wren. Willow's afraid of Dandelion. Clover's afraid of Poppy. But then they'll all cuddle together and preen... assuming their positioning is right. It's like seating guests at a wedding reception.

Normal? Were the first chickens anomalies? Is every flock different in how they set the tone? Has anyone else noticed different intensities with different flocks? Any chance they'll chill out once they're laying eggs?

Let me know!

 

[Evadig]

Your flock sounds just like mine. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

My hens have had drama ever since the first four got to be about eighteen weeks old. There’s always someone picking on another one.
They have the nicest life any chicken could want - an acre they get to free range on most days, plenty of room in the coop, and scraps aplenty.

But no, each hen feels it’s her duty to prevent the next lower ranking hen from ever enjoying life.
Just one example: there is an eighteen-foot roost for eight hens, and they all huddle together at one end and peck each other. If the lowest hens move to the opposite side, a higher-ranking one will follow just to keep pecking.

I just about hate chickens by now and don’t plan on getting another flock. I’ve had 20+ chickens in different arrangements and always there is drama.

I know people can have peaceful flocks, but I don’t know how they do it. Hopefully you can get this situation resolved and have some peace again!

Edit: my hens range from 1.5 years to 3.5 years. There was a rooster, I think he helped a little. But he died.

 

[thecatumbrella]

Your flock sounds just like mine. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

My hens have had drama ever since the first four got to be about eighteen weeks old. There’s always someone picking on another one.
They have the nicest life any chicken could want - an acre they get to free range on most days, plenty of room in the coop, and scraps aplenty.

But no, each hen feels it’s her duty to prevent the next lower ranking hen from ever enjoying life.
Just one example: there is an eighteen-foot roost for eight hens, and they all huddle together at one end and peck each other. If the lowest hens move to the opposite side, a higher-ranking one will follow just to keep pecking.

I just about hate chickens by now and don’t plan on getting another flock. I’ve had 20+ chickens in different arrangements and always there is drama.

I know people can have peaceful flocks, but I don’t know how they do it. Hopefully you can get this situation resolved and have some peace again!

Edit: my hens range from 1.5 years to 3.5 years. There was a rooster, I think he helped a little. But he died.

I wanted to both laugh and cry reading this. I'm so sorry it's been this difficult for you. I had a few months where my 3 large fowl pullets lived in complete harmony. It was amazing, and I could spoil them with lots of enrichment and everyone shared. I really wanted to recapture the magic with these "docile" cochin bantams, but it's not looking too great.

Thank you for sharing. It does make me feel better to not be completely alone in this!

 

[TOMTE]

I know it's pretty normal for pullets and cockerels to spar a lot starting from a young age as they start figuring out who belongs where, who's stronger than who, who gets to eat first... My girls sparred all the time when they were young, but nothing serious. Sometimes it was hard to watch though. You want them to all just get along and cooperate with each other!

But that's just how chickens are built to live. Without a pecking order, they don't feel secure. Even those at the bottom would rather be lowest than alone. For a long time my odd one out, Sybil, was picked on by everybody but especially Aliss, who is now the boss. But once everyone started laying (or getting close) Sybil and Aliss buddied up and now they're inseparable: Sybil's place in the pecking order is directly under Aliss and they go everywhere together, and Sybil knows to respect her boss or get a quick peck on the head (it rarely happens these days).

But after Sybil it gets a little more chaotic. Sybil doesn't tolerate insubordination from Gytha, who doesn't tolerate it from Esme, who doesn't tolerate it from Magrat. But Magrat, all the way at the bottom rung, has a lot of spunk and will challenge even Aliss by standing over her or even giving her a peck on the comb. Sometimes Aliss lets her have her fun, other times she puts Magrat back in her place and chases her off. Magrat gets a little bullied at bedtime and in the morning when they come out to eat. It doesn't seem to faze her much because she continues to be an insubordinate little brat all the time

With a smaller flock like mine, it's easier to see the inner workings of the pecking order and how each individual fits in and deals with their place. I spend several hours a day with them, interacting and just observing.

Magrat in particular likes her alone time and I can't blame her. I find her by herself a lot when they're out ranging on the property, and I lead her back to the rest because we have too many predators (namely hawks) for me to be comfortable letting any of them wander around alone. Sometimes she's alone because she gets chased off for whatever reason, other times she just wanders. Little stinker and then when she or any of them get separated and can't find the others, they'll start making this loud whining noise for me to help find the group. I take my role as part-time weird looking rooster very seriously

Anyways, when it comes to bullying, the more space and clutter the better. What's your setup like? Is it big enough? If they're fighting over a water bottle, give them a second or even third one so there are more of them to choose from. Hide the water bottles away from one another, behind clutter, so the bullies don't see others playing with a toy that they see as theirs. If they're fighting over roosting space, give them more opportunities to roost in different spots. Fighting over nests, give them more. Fighting over food or water, give them more. More, more, more opportunities for everybody to be able to use everything. LOTS of clutter to block line of sight so a chicken being pursued has lots of places to hide. It builds confidence.

I don't have all that much personal experience— this is my first flock. But just from my limited experience and research on top of it, your current flock seems pretty normal. They should figure it out once everybody is laying. If not, really examine their space. Give them more space if they need it and a lot of things for everybody to do. It's inevitable that some will be left out of a dirt bath or chased off the food. That's why more is better!

It's also important to let them do their pecking order thing. Adding or getting rid of individuals causes more chaos in the long run because then the pecking order has to adjust again. As long as they aren't straight up trying to kill each other or causing severe injury (like from vent pecking for example), let them straighten it out themselves. That's just how they roll. We don't have to like it but we do have to accept that it's how chickens work. I have to stop myself from scolding a chook when she disciplines a subordinate, it's not easy not to step in! But unless they're incessantly going at each other, I leave them alone to figure it out. If one in particular is being bullied too much I spend some extra time with her to build her confidence. Sometimes I do need to scold the bullies and drive them away from the victim. Then, usually, things settle down again. Rooster says it's time to stop, better listen!

Basically, don't take away any enrichment that starts fights/bullying. Just give them more. Less enrichment means more fights out of boredom, stress, anxiety... Clutter the run so much that it's difficult for you to maneuver around in there. Take time to watch how they interact with their environment and each other, and change things around as needed— just keep in mind that chickens are stessed by too much change, so do it a bit at a time.

I always say, if you want to fix a problem with an animal, you need to learn to think like that animal! They absolutely do not play by our rules, so we need to learn to play by theirs.

 

[Mrs. K]

Anyways, when it comes to bullying, the more space and clutter the better. What's your setup like? Is it big enough? If they're fighting over a water bottle, give them a second or even third one so there are more of them to choose from. Hide the water bottles away from one another, behind clutter, so the bullies don't see others playing with a toy that they see as theirs. If they're fighting over roosting space, give them more opportunities to roost in different spots. Fighting over nests, give them more. Fighting over food or water, give them more. More, more, more opportunities for everybody to be able to use everything. LOTS of clutter to block line of sight so a chicken being pursued has lots of places to hide. It builds confidence.

This ^^ is good advice. Often times in the beginning, people keep them in too small of area to keep them safe. Chickens need a lot of space to get away from each other.

Post a picture of your set up.

Mrs K

 

[thecatumbrella]

@TOMTE @Mrs. K

Setup attached. 9 foot x 18 foot run with 6 bantams (so 27 sqft/bird). Two feeders with visual blocks. Two waterers with partial visual block. Two dig boxes. One is a new "subterranean" style that allows them to get 6" down into the cool dirt. The other is a sand box that normally has a treat dispenser over it. That has been removed because it was making them insane over the sand box (even though the dispenser only went off once a day with whole-grain feed). I also use the sand box for their food kick ball. The 36 sqft jungle gym has 4 food trays that are only accessible from certain perches. I also have 2 poppy peck toys (you can see one hanging in the very front) with larger crumble that sit on opposite sides of the run. Those have also been removed temporarily. We scatter all flock pellets along the perimeter 2x/day for them to forage. Twice a week, I'll also scatter sprouts. They dust bathe everywhere in the mulch (literally everywhere ). Unfortunately, I cannot make the run bigger at this time. But my husband and I are discussing possible layout changes. Most things have to be placed centrally because that is the only section that stays bone dry. The left wall is empty most of the time because it both gets cooked in the sun and drenched in the rain. I intended to add a couple of large planters around it to jump on/hide around, but haven't gotten to it yet.

TLDR: 162 sqft covered run. Many, many ways to procure either crumble or pellets with fresh greens twice a week. I've only removed 2 enrichment items due to excessive aggression around them.

 

[thecatumbrella]

I know it's pretty normal for pullets and cockerels to spar a lot starting from a young age as they start figuring out who belongs where, who's stronger than who, who gets to eat first... My girls sparred all the time when they were young, but nothing serious. Sometimes it was hard to watch though. You want them to all just get along and cooperate with each other!

But that's just how chickens are built to live. Without a pecking order, they don't feel secure. Even those at the bottom would rather be lowest than alone. For a long time my odd one out, Sybil, was picked on by everybody but especially Aliss, who is now the boss. But once everyone started laying (or getting close) Sybil and Aliss buddied up and now they're inseparable: Sybil's place in the pecking order is directly under Aliss and they go everywhere together, and Sybil knows to respect her boss or get a quick peck on the head (it rarely happens these days).

But after Sybil it gets a little more chaotic. Sybil doesn't tolerate insubordination from Gytha, who doesn't tolerate it from Esme, who doesn't tolerate it from Magrat. But Magrat, all the way at the bottom rung, has a lot of spunk and will challenge even Aliss by standing over her or even giving her a peck on the comb. Sometimes Aliss lets her have her fun, other times she puts Magrat back in her place and chases her off. Magrat gets a little bullied at bedtime and in the morning when they come out to eat. It doesn't seem to faze her much because she continues to be an insubordinate little brat all the time

With a smaller flock like mine, it's easier to see the inner workings of the pecking order and how each individual fits in and deals with their place. I spend several hours a day with them, interacting and just observing.

Magrat in particular likes her alone time and I can't blame her. I find her by herself a lot when they're out ranging on the property, and I lead her back to the rest because we have too many predators (namely hawks) for me to be comfortable letting any of them wander around alone. Sometimes she's alone because she gets chased off for whatever reason, other times she just wanders. Little stinker and then when she or any of them get separated and can't find the others, they'll start making this loud whining noise for me to help find the group. I take my role as part-time weird looking rooster very seriously

Anyways, when it comes to bullying, the more space and clutter the better. What's your setup like? Is it big enough? If they're fighting over a water bottle, give them a second or even third one so there are more of them to choose from. Hide the water bottles away from one another, behind clutter, so the bullies don't see others playing with a toy that they see as theirs. If they're fighting over roosting space, give them more opportunities to roost in different spots. Fighting over nests, give them more. Fighting over food or water, give them more. More, more, more opportunities for everybody to be able to use everything. LOTS of clutter to block line of sight so a chicken being pursued has lots of places to hide. It builds confidence.

I don't have all that much personal experience— this is my first flock. But just from my limited experience and research on top of it, your current flock seems pretty normal. They should figure it out once everybody is laying. If not, really examine their space. Give them more space if they need it and a lot of things for everybody to do. It's inevitable that some will be left out of a dirt bath or chased off the food. That's why more is better!

It's also important to let them do their pecking order thing. Adding or getting rid of individuals causes more chaos in the long run because then the pecking order has to adjust again. As long as they aren't straight up trying to kill each other or causing severe injury (like from vent pecking for example), let them straighten it out themselves. That's just how they roll. We don't have to like it but we do have to accept that it's how chickens work. I have to stop myself from scolding a chook when she disciplines a subordinate, it's not easy not to step in! But unless they're incessantly going at each other, I leave them alone to figure it out. If one in particular is being bullied too much I spend some extra time with her to build her confidence. Sometimes I do need to scold the bullies and drive them away from the victim. Then, usually, things settle down again. Rooster says it's time to stop, better listen!

Basically, don't take away any enrichment that starts fights/bullying. Just give them more. Less enrichment means more fights out of boredom, stress, anxiety... Clutter the run so much that it's difficult for you to maneuver around in there. Take time to watch how they interact with their environment and each other, and change things around as needed— just keep in mind that chickens are stessed by too much change, so do it a bit at a time.

I always say, if you want to fix a problem with an animal, you need to learn to think like that animal! They absolutely do not play by our rules, so we need to learn to play by theirs.

I appreciate hearing about your experience. I did post above with my run. At one point, I felt like there must be something seriously wrong with their living situation, but I'm starting to feel like this is just how they want to run things. We came out this morning to a pullet, who was previously at the bottom of the pecking order, now pushing around the two biggest jerks in the flock! And one of the said jerks just squatted. At 16 weeks old. So I'm starting to see a lot of the girls sorting out their place, much like yours did!

I will 100% add the things I removed back in. I even bought extras. Perhaps I made the wrong decision in taking a couple things away, but it seems to have cooled a bit of the resource guarding. There's still things for them to do. It's also 90 degrees out right now, and the last thing I want is them chasing each other around the run because someone entered the holy sandbox.

 

[TOMTE]

@TOMTE @Mrs. K

Setup attached. 9 foot x 18 foot run with 6 bantams (so 27 sqft/bird). Two feeders with visual blocks. Two waterers with partial visual block. Two dig boxes. One is a new "subterranean" style that allows them to get 6" down into the cool dirt. The other is a sand box that normally has a treat dispenser over it. That has been removed because it was making them insane over the sand box (even though the dispenser only went off once a day with whole-grain feed). I also use the sand box for their food kick ball. The 36 sqft jungle gym has 4 food trays that are only accessible from certain perches. I also have 2 poppy peck toys (you can see one hanging in the very front) with larger crumble that sit on opposite sides of the run. Those have also been removed temporarily. We scatter all flock pellets along the perimeter 2x/day for them to forage. Twice a week, I'll also scatter sprouts. They dust bathe everywhere in the mulch (literally everywhere ). Unfortunately, I cannot make the run bigger at this time. But my husband and I are discussing possible layout changes. Most things have to be placed centrally because that is the only section that stays bone dry. The left wall is empty most of the time because it both gets cooked in the sun and drenched in the rain. I intended to add a couple of large planters around it to jump on/hide around, but haven't gotten to it yet.

TLDR: 162 sqft covered run. Many, many ways to procure either crumble or pellets with fresh greens twice a week. I've only removed 2 enrichment items due to excessive aggression around them.

The size looks good! I definitely think with lots more clutter they'll feel more secure and won't pick on each other as much. If you have any lawn chairs you don't use, dog crates/houses, buckets, large pots, branches, ladders/step stools, stuff like that, use them! They can be used to escape under and behind and on, but also to hide enrichment items, food and water.

 

[thecatumbrella]

The size looks good! I definitely think with lots more clutter they'll feel more secure and won't pick on each other as much. If you have any lawn chairs you don't use, dog crates/houses, buckets, large pots, branches, ladders/step stools, stuff like that, use them! They can be used to escape under and behind and on, but also to hide enrichment items, food and water.

I will see what I can do, thank you!

 

[Mrs. K]

Your set up surprised me, I really expected a much smaller set up. You could add roosts out there - but do bantam's roost?